Mage giving me trouble

[mike_ravenwood]

I was curious what other were using to challenge a group with a paranoid mage among thier PC's. In my game one of my PCs is a Mage ( Will B6, Sorc B6, Forte B5), and he's paranoid of going squish if combat breaks out. So at the slightest hint of danger he rolls his 12 dice for Turn Aside the Blade and averages about 5 success over OB. With this substantial protection he is free to blast the crap out of most things that move in the parties direction. The rest of the PC's are equally able fighters but things that would challenge them just look like inviting White Fire targets to the Mage. I've had success getting the drop on them and limiting the chance for the Mage to always get his slower more powerful spells in play, giving the rest of the PC's the moments to shine as they are ready with a strong sword arm to mix it up with whatever may happen. As things have progressed though I'm wanting to some different situations that are still a challenge but don't involve either things springing from the shadows or charging in only to take a lightining bolt that's pushing or reaching Gray damage. I have a few ideas that are a little too mean to the Mage, and I don't want to steal his thunder just make sure he's challenged.
Any interesting combat situations that have caused fun and havok would be great.

[Viper]

Off the top of my head, you could throw in a couple of enemies with the eldritch sink trait- magic just won't affect them... or have a couple of enemies with magic armor that acts as an eldritch shield, which will knock successes off of those white fires, but still give him a chance to break through.

If he's using turn aside the blade alot, throw in a couple of enemy mages that will cast stuff right back at him. A lot of the spells are potentially fatal, and I can understand you not wanting to kill him outright, so my personal suggestion would be Emperor's Hand. It will drain his forte and either knock him out, or make his tax rolls REALLY interesting. Also, fire fan and havoc's hand are good offensive spells that are potentially dangerous, but not as overwhelming as white fire. Finally, if an enemy mage cast delerium tremens on him, I think that would make casting turn aside the blade a bit more difficult!

[luke]

Hi Mike!
One thing I learned from years of GMing, what the players do, they want done back to them. I agree with Viper, it sounds like your players are desperate for a Mage duel! Throw in a nice 6/6/6 :twisted: enemy mage with a host of sustainers and multipliers (sense/TAB/eldritch shield) and give him a retinue of kick ass bodyguards. He can protect his retinue with his awesome Eldritch Shield and TAB spells and then hammer away at your PC mage with White Fire or Rain of Fire or any thing else on down from there. If your PC doesn't have Eldritch Shield, an enemy mage is FATAL -- game ovah! So go easy on him if he don't got it.

And make sure your mage comes to the battle prepared -- all spells up before the scene commences.

play your cards right, and you could have a nice long term villain/rival for your group.
-L

[Kaare Berg]

Here' a few thing I did in my campaign.

I had the same problem, which is a mage that plays his character senisble and well. But it over shadows the others, or more annoyingly you can't put the fear of god into him.

Tip one!

Do not punish your player for being smart.

But then if he's smart so can you be. The clue is to do this without it becoming a bash the mage competition.

Tip two!

Swamp them. Have the sword slingers struggle to keep hordes of attackers from the mage until he can unleash rain of fire. Ob 5 spell. He'll loose a few dice to tax there. Then hit him again.

In my campaign I've done this a few times, and the mage has even cast it haistily, failing his forte roll miserably and taking a TW. When his health roll fails, Cap his Forte at five or reduce it. Just make sure that the mage character is een as a hero and a saviour for his sacrifice and he shouldn't gripe.

Tip Three

Turn Aside Blade (TAB) does not protect against enchanted weapons. A little prick in the side with one of these and watch the cascade as he looses his concentration and the subsequent spell failure. Oh and the tax, the tax my friend, it will hurt, much more than this little prick in the side.

Calem (PC in my campaign) has suffered from these lapses of spell failure from time to time. He even used this technique to kill an enemy arch-mage. Last session he couldn't cast any spell sbecause Aelfric the assassin was trying to stab him with a Morgul Blade.

Did I mention the assasin with the enchanted bow "Mage Killer" which was sent by those that faced these spells of death too many times. Put him next to a couple of charging trolls, watch the trolls take white fire and the mage take arrows. I guarantee the fireworks are going to be amazing.

Tip Four

TAB does not protect against grapples. Here comes the Trolls again, three or four hulking brutes shambling towards their lines. Zzzzzzap one goes down, the other players face ont or two. One gets through, bellows "you hurt my eyes" - GRAB - Fizzle - KABLOOOOOOM.

Poor Calem has micast many a spell because of the need to dodge grappling enemies. Especially my wood trolls are feared because they go for the strongest and know no fear.

Tip Five

TAB is a visible magical field. It seriously hampers stealth. Nuff said.

Tip Six

Though the player knows if he rolls poorly, the character dosen't. Enforce the let it ride rule.

Calem has thought himself safe when his player has groaned at the prospect of a ZERO extra successes TAB.

Summary

All these tips however all are controlled by Tip number One. Do not use them to get at the player, but use them to spice up combat.

hope this helps

[Angaros]

Another idea would be to put them up against religious zealots. Let the mage know there are more potent powers than magic. Have a priest do a minor miracle and end his TAB or something similar. It's easy to get overconfident, both as a character and as a player, when you're good at magic. And, IMHO, it's no fun playing when you constantly feel you're at the top of the power scale. Challenging is fun.

As others have said, make sure it's not about punishment or something like that. This could be especially dangerous for the group if they find themselves on the enemies's holy ground (I'd give Faith Ob reductions in such a place, at least when the defenders are under attack).

A guy who GMed most campaigns I played in some years ago, often put us in situations where we had to think a bit who we engaged and where. Not only in combat situations, but equally often (if not more often) in social situations. Sure, we might have been both competent warriors and esteemed members of society, but we couldn't just assume everything and everyone we met was balanced against our own level. Sometimes we had to swallow our pride and run/hide/avoid situations just because we knew or at least suspected that we'd be run over. It made play more living and made us more prudent which saved our lives and our reputations more than once.

[Kublai]

Swarms work great too against TAB'ed and White Fire wielding mages. Giant Spiders work great, too. Sure two or three are popped by the lightning bolt, but the one that reaches him will easily lock him up and cover him in webs. Of course, the bite won't be able to penetrate TAB at first, but eventually it will drop! :twisted:

[Thor]

Also, it sounds like the Mage does not have TAB as an Instinct (you said he only casts it when he thinks there'll be trouble). Try a nice ambush. Can he get 4 free, unhassled Actions to get TAB up while his mates are engaged in furious combat?

Does he have up Eldritch Shield? What about The Sense? If he has all three, the Will dice needed to Sustain them will start adding up. If he doesn't have Eldritch Shield? Hoo boy! An enemy mage should be able to make mincemeat out of him. Emperor's Hand is a great spell to take him out. Or, if you REALLY want to put the fear of god into your players, have an Enemy mage cast The Horror. Sure, the PC mage only has a Hesitation of 4, but an enemy mage with B6 Will and B6 Sorcery should be able to get 7 or 8 successes without too much trouble, which would mean +3 or +4 Ob on the Steel test. Even with a B9 Steel, rolling against a Hesitation of 7 or 8 is no joke!

Finally, as mentioned above, TAB does nothing against grapples. Getting Inside and applying a Damaging Lock for a few Actions should take care of the mage, especially since I'm betting he doesn't have much in the way of Speed or Power.

[Viper]

Give the poor guy our condolences...

[Fourth Horseman]

Swarms work great too against TAB'ed and White Fire wielding mages. Giant Spiders work great, too. Sure two or three are popped by the lightning bolt, but the one that reaches him will easily lock him up and cover him in webs. Of course, the bite won't be able to penetrate TAB at first, but eventually it will drop! :twisted:

Killjoy . . .

[Kublai]

If only you stuck around.... :twisted:

[Yagathai]

I don't have the books here, but how would a lock affect someone with TATB?

[Viper]

TATB offers no protection against locks, AFAIK. Therefore, it's a good way to get that "Oh shit" look pop up on your average mage player's face.

[Kublai]

I don't have the books here, but how would a lock affect someone with TATB?

TAB's intent is to turn aside weapons of wood, stone, steel, and flesh that are striking at the mage with the intent to harm. Since Locks are not strikes, technically, and they are not intended to harm, they aren't within TAB's parameters. There is some arguments that Pushes, Charges, and Throws also pass through this loop hole, but officially they are still affected by TAB. A quote from DUNE will suffice here - "The slow blade penetrates" - Gurney.

We have also found another way around TAB, but that is a secret so dangerous that I'll never reveal it! :twisted:

[mike_ravenwood]

OMG!!!!!
I'm blown away by the mass of response!!! Thanks to all for such a timely and well rounded responses. I'm sure all of your suggestions will come in handy this weekend and I'll be sure to post what happens to the poor mage, and of course I'll be giving the Mage all of your names... If you should see a darkened shape outside your bedroom window Sunday night, just remeber White Fire probably doesn't hurt THAT much... : )


Again, thanks for all of the support, I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw the number of responses so soon.

[mike_ravenwood]

Hey guys here is what I threw at the PC's

3 Orcs mounted on 3 Massive stature spiders to start. The PC's knew they were being hunted after escaping an giant underground spider nest. They weren't sure what was after them and in unfamilar territory so they hauled ass until the found some good fighting ground. The NPC Orc Hunter guessed they had about 30 mins before what ever the orcs sent after them was on them (he guessed wrong). They had about 5 min in reality. The mage carefuly cast His TAB and started a fire for easy Spark Shower uses when the Orcs fell upon the group. The PC's had found some open ground to fight and as the Orc/Spiders charged the group the Mage smirked and manged to say "I start casting White..." before I said "Alan, give me a Power or Speed Test, whichever is better" Gotta watch out for those Wolves with Magic. A Dire Haunt had snuck up with one wicked Chameleon up and clamped onto his ass just as combat began. After many exchanges, and strangely every Spider manging to fall on top of the PC's who were fighting them they were all still standing. As for the Mage he spent most of the combat rolling around on the ground doing his best to keep the wolf off him. He did an admiral job and the Dire Haunt had to flee to fight another day.
Oh and if anyone was wondering why the PC's were unfortunate enough to piss off Spiders, Orcs, a Great Wolf, and later a Troll, they were picking up one of the key plot devices...I mean a Magical Artifact. I don't always throw all the biggies at them at once. It was a blast though.
Don't worry I've got the rest of your suggestions filed away for another key moment. Thanks

[luke]

::lights cigar::
I love it when a plan comes together!

-L

[Kaare Berg]

Good beat down.

you did roll for spell interrupt I hope. :twisted:

There is a but, however,

Your mage player, Alan, had prepared well, TAB and even lit a fire to get some sparks. He prepared. Fine.

now I assume that the magical ability of wolves is a known factor, if not the following:


A Dire Haunt had snuck up with one wicked Chameleon up and clamped onto his ass just as combat began

might be percived as unwarranted mage bashing. Although you might well be within the rules to do the above, I as your mage might percieve this as unfair. After all he had prepared smartly.

Important! Now I am not Alan, nor was I present or know your group. It also sounds like you had a blast. But if it was me being chomped on I wouldn't have appriciate it. Maybe once, but not every time.

So I guess what I am saying is be careful. Or at least drop hints.

I know this sounds contradictionary, but this involves a tricky issue. A mage with White Fire and good will and sorcery is powerfull. There is no way a normal knight can match him for kill-to-attack efficiency.

So you let him play it. Do not punish him for being smart.

Players will seek an oppurtunity to ensure their characters safety with a greater survival instinct than a starved rat. And they all want to breeze through the adventure with minimal risk for maximum reward. If they can White Fire left and right without cost they will do so.

What I guess what all the dirty tricks you've been given boil down to is how to curb this behaviour without it seeming unfair.

if they knew of magical stealth wolves and failed to take them into account then by all means scrap all of the above and dump it into the big box here labled grumpy old norwegian sod. Then they deserve pain.

If not I hope I am making sense.

[luke]

I definitely see where you are coming from, Kaare. But, in Mike's defense, his mage player almost prepared well. I mean what self-respecting sorcerer would go into battle without his trusty Sense spell up?

Hopefully, next time, he'll be better prepared! (and with two spells being sustained, his WF will lose a little of its bite).

-L

[Kaare Berg]

Right again Luke, but Sense only works as Observation Training and dosen't let the mage automatically detect stealth wolves (at work no book).

[Thor]

Right again Luke, but Sense only works as Observation Training and dosen't let the mage automatically detect stealth wolves (at work no book).

True, but the Wolf was using Chameleon, and part of what The Sense is all about is detecting magical effects. You have a hell of a lot of a better chance detecting a Chameleoned, stealthy wolf with The Sense up.

[Kublai]

I play any magical effect as being plainly apparent to anyone with The Sense up. That Chameleoned wolf would've been a shining beacon in the realm of magic auras.

[mike_ravenwood]

First off, yes Alan was quite pissed (in character) that he got chomped on.
My defense is two fold, if I had to explain to him out of character.
1. The Dire Haunt is skilled in the Magic of Men. He suck up, spotted the Alan with his nice field of energy protecting him from most forms of normal injury and knew Alan was the best target for the bite down.
2. Court Sorceror Alan Exen of Thomas "The Boy King" of Carsis has almost NO non-combat spells!!! His only non combat spell is "Mending". In some games building slightly out of balance characters is ok, but to me BW isn't very kind to that sort of behavior. Just think about character creation for any type of character. Everything is a trade off, you want that B6 Power and Forte go for it, it will cost you.

Some things did go Alan's way though, he kept that TAB going through all those volleys of rolling around and scrambling. Then Fate took another turn at the end and with his dying action an Orc nailed him with an extremely lucky crossbow shot that left Alan with a large hunk of wood protruding from his chest. I love Heavy crossbows.

Of course Alan's just asking for more. After retriving their first magical weapon, and heading off for a long boat ride he had a chance to pick up a new spell to research. Did he pick the Sense, nope, oh well some people will never learn.

It was a lot of fun, and there will be more moments for the PC's to wipe the floor with random minions of various enemies. Those who will blindly line up for whatever death and destruction the PC's will hurl upon them.