New Trait: "Suuuper Geeenius"

[Kublai]

Call it what you will, but I feel there is a place for it. Basically, character generation makes it nigh-impossible to make a playable PC starting with a Grey Mental Stat, while starting with a Grey Physical Stat is much more realistic. The reason is obvious: 5 pts from 2 Stats vs. 5 pts from 4 Stats. Therefore, there needs to be a rule to make starting with a grey mental stat easier.

"Suuuuuuper Geeeeenius" will allow this. When you purchase the trait, you can subtract the 5 necessary points from both pools. I have no idea how much it should cost.

Help me out.

[luke]

It's not impossible, you just don't want to pay the price or modify your character concept to suit with the rules demand.

but a trait like this is fine.

Rulebreaker+PITAP = 6-8 pts to your taste.

Or Rulebreak+Gray shading= 10 pts.

your call.
-L

[Kublai]

Yikes! With those Trait costs, Grey Mental stats are just as hard to come by! :shock:

The imbalance I perceive is that with a normal starting character with 4 lifepaths, its easy enough to get Physical Stats at 3's and 4's and have one of those be Grey. However, even if you took all Mental boosting lifepaths, you'd most likely end up with one 3 and one 2, with one of them being Grey. Clearly, there is a disadvantage.

But in order to make up for that disadvantage, I now have to take only lifepaths that grant me a whole bunch of trait points, despite them not fitting in my concept.

So, why not just make it a rule that the 5 points needed to Grey out a stat during character generation can come from both Stat pools? What's the harm in this approach? You would still need GMs approval and you'd still be sacrificing the same amount of points.

[luke]

because it breaks the convention of character creation in BW.

if you can't get five mental points or 6 trait points in 5 lifepaths (and 25 years), i don't know what game you've been playing the last few years!

-L

[Kublai]

If the cost is going to be 6, and not 6-8 or even 10, well that's better.

It's impossible to get 5 Mental Points in 5 Lifepaths. What game have you been playing and where can I get the rules? And my example was with the most common 4 LP starting character. I specifically chose 4 lps because it is the most commonly allowed number of paths and it shows the imbalance in the most obvious way.

[Fourth Horseman]

I don't know. I tend to agree with Kublai--simply because this fits into my greater pet peeve that its rather difficult to burn a talented YOUNG human. Of course, people who usually blossom early do so to compensate for some other pretty serious deficiencies in their life.

I'm actually thinking Mozart here. The kid could play the piano when he was four and wrote his first symphony a few years later. By all accounts four lifepath Mozart had a grey--pick you instrument--skill, was a grey conductor and a grey composer. I'm thinking he must have had a grey mental stat in their so that all of his roots could have been grey.

Of course, Mozart was emotionally stunted, prone to profanity, arrogant, and a spendthrift. There is conjecture that a similar musical genius, Beethoven, was autistic.

My point? With great genius, comes great cost. Perhaps Kublai's Genius trait could carry with it, some negative character aspects built in to reflect the double edged nature of childhood genius.

Now, Abzu will probably retort that these negative character lapses will be reflected in the lower base mental stat. I disagree--and forgive me if I just created a strawman you never had any intention to raise--Mozart's IQ test scores would have been off the wall. To reach the base OBSTACLE of such a test, he would need a decent base mental stat. Moreover, well before he even had four lifepaths worth of skill points to pad out any heroic roots--he was meeting high obstacle tests. The man was writing mature concertos and symphonies in his teens. That tells me he was either defaulting off of a high mental stat or already had a decent base skill. All of this at a time when he was already displaying the talents of a gifted, MASTER, musician. He simply had too many grey skills at a very young age to ascribe them to the hoarding of skill points--he must have had high roots.

Intuitively then, a Genius trait which included the negative aspects I just cited, should be cheaper then 8 - 10 points. If there's one thing I've learned from talking to Abzu, though, its that intuitive doesn't always fly with him. Thoughts?

[Thor]

The problem is that any game system needs to be designed toward the mean, and that means that certain individuals that are at either extreme are going to be very difficult to model. Someone like Mozart is a case in point.

The closest I think you could get to a young Mozart is Born Noble, lead to City, Composer. Then give him the Child Prodigy trait and give him a grey Music Composition.

Kublai is, of course, correct that +5 Men in 5 LPs is impossible. But 6 trait points in 5 LPs is perfectly doable.

Old LPs:
City Born, Student, Physician, Artist, Artist
The character gets 6 Trait points and potentially +4 Men. He's 29 years old.

New LPs:
City Born, Student, Physician, Sculptor, Painter.
The character gets 8 trait points (2 of which must go toward Odd and Passionate) and potentially +4 Men. He's 31 years old.

[Kublai]

because it breaks the convention of character creation in BW.

Saying just "because" doesn't explain to me why or how it breaks the convention. I am being honest when I say I don't see the harm. I know you fear power-gamers, but with GM approval and 5 pts lost, that is enough control, I think.

[Fourth Horseman]

The problem is that any game system needs to be designed toward the mean, and that means that certain individuals that are at either extreme are going to be very difficult to model. Someone like Mozart is a case in point.

I disagree. I was under the impression that BW sought o offer such a diverse variety of lifepaths and settings, that it would be up to the GAMER whether they wanted to play an average character or an extraordinary character. If that is the objective--and I could be wrong since I can't read Abzu's mind--then there should be some manuever space for a starting character of heroic intelligence, and I think that is the point Kublai is trying to make. As it stands now the game perfectly accomodates, ok not perfectly, but still accomodates players who want to make characters with extraordinary physical stats or an extraordinary social background. A game which catered, or rather limited players, to the "mean" would not have many noble lifepaths, especially ones touching the top wrungs of feudal society, since this priviledged class approached nowhere near the mean of medieval society. A game that limited itself to the mean of physical tolerances wouldn't have such a rich array of physical stat bonuses in character generation, nor would it allow much deviation from a starting average of B3 in the phsycial stats.

But BW appears, to me, to be a game that does not cater to such a "mean." Why? Because that would be a boring game. Many of us roleplay for the operatic, escapist elements. As character generation stands now it allows players to burn buffed out noblemen who bust the social and physical mean. What of those of us who would like to burn the cerebral equivalent?

I'm sure its not imppossible within the current confines of the system, but I think Kublai raises a valid point that things are currently schewed in favor of the physical.

[Viper]

If you look at the math, it's really not that different graying out mental and physical stats, technically, it's a matter of a couple of points (though that couple may mean the world to someone) - let's say the average age you wind up with after 4 lifepaths falls within the 26-29 age bracket. That gives you starting pools of 7/15.

Split this as evenly as possible, and you will wind up with a 3/4 mental split, and a 3/4/4/4 physical split. You can't grey anything at this point without making your character an invalid or an idiot.

For arguments sake, lets say you pick up 3 lifepaths that give you either +! to mental or +1 physical.


so, if you go physical, you have 18 points, -5 for greying one of them, leaving 13 points. Divided by 4 stats, leaves you with 3s in every stat, and one stat at 4, again, assuming you divide evenly.

3/3/3/4, grey one of them.

Say you go the other way and dump the points into mental- you'll have 10 points -5 for greying, leaving you with 5- that's 1 stat at 2, and one at 3.

3/2, again, one grey.

So, really, it's a question of 1 or 2 points to make it even. 2 more points in mental would give you one stat at 3, and one at 4, and one of them would be grey. 1 point would give you even threes.

So, the million dollar question is, what's the fairest way to give a player access to those 1 or 2 points. Traits seem the way to go, or perhaps give all characters the option of shifting up to 2 points between the pools, to represent the natural variation among individuals. Or not. whatever, just brainstorming.

[luke]

What I really love is when someone proffers a legitimate example from the rules -- the Child Prodigy trait -- that is completely ignored in favor of bluster.

Thor's example of Child Prodigy seems to fix the problem to me.


And, to return to an ancient (and what I thought was dead) argument: There's a reason we have mental and physical pools. What you, Kublai and 4H, are asking for is the deconstruction of that mechanic.

Once, if you remember, there were no M and P pools. you just got a lump of stat points and some specific bonuses. The characters generated in this system were monstrous -- min-maxing was the order of the day. You had many characters who were either a feeble super genius, or a brain dead adonis. It was ridiculous and tiresome.

The mental and physical pools were put in place to better reflect personal growth. Sometimes you just get stuck with a couple of points in your mental pool that you can't use to Gray out your Agility with.

And Thor is also correct in his assessment of the Character Burner's intent. The lifepaths create some one who is average, or at least not too far from the norm. It is the adventures and actual play that begin to mold and shape your extraordinary heroes.

-L

[Kublai]

And, to return to an ancient (and what I thought was dead) argument: There's a reason we have mental and physical pools. What you, Kublai and 4H, are asking for is the deconstruction of that mechanic.

I think you simplified my request a little too much here. I don't want the pools to be lumped together. They work fine as seperate entities. My only problem is the rare occassion when it comes to greying out a starting stat. The Mental pool is obviously disadvantaged here as Viper clearly described.

Child Prodigy is a huge limitation on character concept, so its application isn't really an apt solution to this general imbalance.

The Super Genius trait could work at 6 pts, sure.

But, I'll ask again, why would creating a rule that allows you to take the 5 pts from both pools be so bad? You'll still have seperate stat pools. You'll still need to get GMs permission. You'll still have to make the big sacrifice of 5 pts.

[luke]

But, I'll ask again, why would creating a rule that allows you to take the 5 pts from both pools be so bad? You'll still have seperate stat pools. You'll still need to get GMs permission. You'll still have to make the big sacrifice of 5 pts.

You're right, under relatively strict conditions, it won't break anything. So how about we create a 6 pt trait that allows players to draw from the physical pool to Gray the mental. I think Thor wanted to call it Leonardo after some famous smart guy.

-L

[Kublai]

Wouldn't Leonardo something-or-other be an anachronism seeing as how it'd be a reference to... THE RENAISSANCE? :lol:

[luke]

Wouldn't Leonardo something-or-other be an anachronism seeing as how it'd be a reference to... THE RENAISSANCE? :lol:

::shakes fist at Thor::
Damn you and your Renaissance!

I challenge you to find a medieval genius.

-L

[Kublai]

So, is there a reason not to make this a rule instead of a trait? It seems a bit unfair to make someone pay trait points in order to make up for a mechanical imbalance in the rules.

[Thor]

::shakes fist at Thor::
Damn you and your Renaissance!

I challenge you to find a medieval genius.

-L

I sure wouldn't want to put in anachronisms next to legitimate medieval historical figures like Chow Yun Fat and Mr. Lee! :roll:

So pick your favorite (I guess I'd have to go with Bacon):
Anselm
Aquinas
Augustine
Boethius
Bonaventure
Catherine of Siena
Clement of Alexandria
Dante
Hildegard of Bingen
Heloise
John Duns Scotus
John of Salisbury
Justin Martyr
Meister Eckhart
Moses Maimonides
Origen
Peter Abelard
Plotinus
Pseudo-Dionysius
Robert Grosseteste
Roger Bacon
Siger of Brabant
Tertullian
William of Ockham

[luke]

So, is there a reason not to make this a rule instead of a trait? It seems a bit unfair to make someone pay trait points in order to make up for a mechanical imbalance in the rules.

There's no mechanical imbalance. The rules and points are assigned just so deliberately. If I wanted Men to have gray mental stats, I'd give them more Mental points. (Dwarves and Elves have little trouble Graying their Mental stats.)

-L

[Kublai]

There is a mechanical imbalance. Simple math that proves it's easier to pull 5 pts from 4 stats than 2 stats. This holds true no matter which race you choose, so race ain't an issue here.

Why can't it be that you are allowed to pull 5 pts from 6 stats no matter if you're greying out a Physical or Mental stat? And why couldn't this be a general rule rather than a paid for trait?

[luke]

You are correct, it's easier for humans to have Gray physicals than it is for them to have Gray mentals. This is deliberate. If I wanted it otherwise, I'd have given the humans a special common trait or given them more mental points like Dwarves and Elves.

The reason why this trait is extremely dangerous in BW, is because suddenly you have Orcs and Trolls cropping up with very decent physical stats and a Gray Perception or Will. They are deliberately barred from such advantages by the division of the Mental and Physical pools.

-L

[Kublai]

I contend it's not a race issue at all.

A dwarf is at a disadvantage when greying a mental stat when compared to the ease of greying a physical stat.

An Elf is at a disadvantage when greying a mental stat when compared to the ease of greying a physical stat.

An Orc is at a disadvantage when greying a mental stat when compared to the ease of greying a physical stat.

A Human is at a disadvantage when greying a mental stat when compared to the ease of greying a physical stat.

No matter what race you are, it's easier to grey your Physical than your Mental even with any race-specific lifepath stat bonus trends. It's the simple fact that there will always be more Phyical points to draw from than there are Mental points.

[luke]

really?

a five lifepath elf: Citadel Born, Wanderer, Student, Song Singer, Bard.
205 years old, 13 mental, 18 physical. That'd be 4/4 in mental with one Gray. Tell me how's he's disadvantaged? Certainly not a munchkin or powergamer character either. In fact, he's a great starting character.

a five lifepath dwarf: Born Guilder, lead to Clan, Tinkerer, Husband, Longbeard, Lead to Guilder, Trader.
249 years old, 16 mental, 19 physical. That's a 6/5 in the mental with one gray! This is a munchkin character (I aged him as much as possible in five lifepaths), but still well within the limits of playability.

Tell me how these characters are disadvantaged by the heroic mental stats?

-L