Armor Issue: 12 Exchanges of Fight

[Rafe]

So, we hit a bit of a snag last night. The group ran into 2 spiders (I just used the hunter-seeker from the Burning Rogues section of BW, but gave one a Lariat skill).

Rhys, a templar type character (chainmail, heater shield and sword) ended up fighting one. Due to the 4D/3D armor it had and the 5D/4D armor he had... well, they didn't hit each other at all. After 12 exchanges, I just scripted Withdraws and Avoids as the spider was getting nowhere. After 1 exchange of that, the spider was out of range and in R&C, in which no one cared that it ran so they let it go.

Essentially, p. 183 of BW says that the obstacle for armor is Ob 1. Any successes completely ward off a strike. So they just kept negating each other. Yes, Rhys beat down the spider's armor to 2D/2D (some 1s rolled), but otherwise they just kept not doing anything.

I know this is realistic, and that armor can ward off strikes in such a way. However... has anyone tried using armor almost like an Avoid?

Ex: Rhys rolls 5 successes on his sword Strike. He chooses to aim for the spider's legs (1 extra success) with a Mark instead of Incidental (two extra successes). The spider rolls 3D armor and gets 2 successes. Rhys readjusts and simply hits the legs with an Incidental. (As though he'd only rolled 2 successes.)

I can see one problem with this: How many armor dice to do you roll if the dice rolled negate the attacker's ability to have shifted his hit to that area? (ie, shift to hit legs, roll legs armor which forces a shift back to torso.)

What do people think? We're just finding combat utterly stalemated when two armored people fight. Steve (playing Rhys) blew a Persona and a Fate trying to even damage the spider. He even used Faith in tandem with his first action to give himself +1D to his sword for that fight.

[Glendower]

The problem with armor is that swords are not effective against it.

What you want is a weapon that has a high VA value - Verses Armor (page 183 of the Main rulebook, towards the bottom). An Axe or Mace is an effective armor penetrator. Or adding a beak onto an axe to punch a hole in the armor (Page 258 of the main rulebook). The Verses armor value adds difficulty to the armor roll - a VA of 2 would increase the armor roll to a 3 obstacle roll, not easy to pull off.

But simply slapping a sword against an armored opponent will lead to many exchanges of nothing happening. It's a case of using the wrong tool for the job. When you see an armored opponent, it's time to break out the armor cracking gear. Using an axe with a beak attachment, getting close and stabbing the armor with a beak turns the ob 1 test into an ob 4 test. Good luck getting 4 successes, even on plated mail.

[stormsweeper]

Dude, your spider should have locked the hell out of him.

EDIT: Also, natural armor does not degrade like normal armor.

[Rafe]

Dude, your spider should have locked the hell out of him.

EDIT: Also, natural armor does not degrade like normal armor.

He did. :) I had two full exchanges of Lock/Lock, Lock/Lock, Lock. He got stuck in a -3D lock at one point, but Rhys kept breaking free, or loosening the hold with the spider then rolling poorly, followed by a complete break. It was back and forth constantly, but ultimately the spider couldn't pull the Lock off. Steve also tried Push, Throw, etc. There was lots happening, but things just weren't happening.


The problem with armor is that swords are not effective against it.

What you want is a weapon that has a high VA value - Verses Armor (page 183 of the Main rulebook, towards the bottom). An Axe or Mace is an effective armor penetrator. Or adding a beak onto an axe to punch a hole in the armor (Page 258 of the main rulebook). The Verses armor value adds difficulty to the armor roll - a VA of 2 would increase the armor roll to a 3 obstacle roll, not easy to pull off.

But simply slapping a sword against an armored opponent will lead to many exchanges of nothing happening. It's a case of using the wrong tool for the job. When you see an armored opponent, it's time to break out the armor cracking gear. Using an axe with a beak attachment, getting close and stabbing the armor with a beak turns the ob 1 test into an ob 4 test. Good luck getting 4 successes, even on plated mail.

Very true, Jon. The issue right now is that they armed with: Rhys (Sword, Shield, Dirk), Darien (Bow, Sword, Dirk), Shadow (Dirks, Throwing Knives), Carys (nothing). They'll need to expand their weapons, I guess.

[luke]

Sounds like a statistical aberration. Only on occasion do fights go so long. That spider should have won!

[jchokey]

Rafe/Patrick:

Others have already commented on the value of high VA weapons (maces/axes) against armor. Against a heavily armored opponent, they are far more effective. Also, remember that Great Strikes can be used to increase VA on a blow-by-blow basis.

As others of pointed out, Locks are usually also quite effective against armored opponents. I think it Luke may be right that it was a chance aberration that they weren't in this fight.

One final point: Were you using the armor damage rules? In a long fight, armor will eventually get wore down-- and that's one of the points of shifting the location of the blow-- to keep targeting the same piece of armor so that it eventually loses its protection value. It can still make for long fights, yeah, it will be possible to hit each other eventually.

[jchokey]

Also, natural armor does not degrade like normal armor.

Ooh, that's good to remember. Is that in the MoBu?

[stormsweeper]

Ooh, that's good to remember. Is that in the MoBu?

Yes, p.335 of the first printing, p.331 of later ones, under the Natural Armor heading.

Also, spiders need to be tricksy. Read up on the traps and such, and web nets. Don't forget that spiders don't need light!

[Rafe]

Sounds like a statistical aberration. Only on occasion do fights go so long. That spider should have won!

I agree on both counts. Rhys' wife came in on the 9th or 10th exchange with a lit torch and struck at it, hitting but not damaging. I had the spider roll Steel, as they had a good idea with using fire to drive fear into it. It hesitated 4 actions (most of the exchange) and still nothing happened. (Armor still took effect, in other words.) Finally, though, it just ran.


One final point: Were you using the armor damage rules? In a long fight, armor will eventually get wore down-- and that's one of the points of shifting the location of the blow-- to keep targeting the same piece of armor so that it eventually loses its protection value. It can still make for long fights, yeah, it will be possible to hit each other eventually.

Yee-up. Rhys' shield was down by 1D as was his chest. He rolled pretty well in terms of staving off armor degradation.

[Kublai]

It was Hesitating 4 actions and no one changed their script to Lock? The spider had no ND and would've been very easy to subdue in that time, especially if another character helped.

Also, as GM, you're allowed to suggest the Fight! end with both parties retreating. You don't have to see it all the way through if everyone is in agreement.

[jchokey]

Yes, p.335 of the first printing, p.331 of later ones, under the Natural Armor heading.

Awesome. Thanks!

[luke]

I agree on both counts. Rhys' wife came in on the 9th or 10th exchange with a lit torch and struck at it, hitting but not damaging. I had the spider roll Steel, as they had a good idea with using fire to drive fear into it. It hesitated 4 actions (most of the exchange) and still nothing happened. (Armor still took effect, in other words.) Finally, though, it just ran.

No Great Strikes to the legs?!

[Rafe]

No Great Strikes to the legs?!

Heh He considered it, actually, but after we'd scripted. Then the spider went into Lock mode for two exchanges and he had Escape Lock for every action and forgot about it.


It was Hesitating 4 actions and no one changed their script to Lock? The spider had no ND and would've been very easy to subdue in that time, especially if another character helped.

I think he just wanted to stab the crap out of it by that point and was hoping to do so more or less unopposed. I agree that Locks would have worked wonders. THEN he could have stabbed the crap out of it. :)


Also, as GM, you're allowed to suggest the Fight! end with both parties retreating. You don't have to see it all the way through if everyone is in agreement.

Cheers, Kublai -- I definitely ought to have done that.

[Verrain]

Rafe, were you using the rules for Wrapping when the spider with Lariat locked? Once wrapped in webbing it is an Ob8 Power check to break free from the webbing and reduce the lock.

[Rafe]

Rafe, were you using the rules for Wrapping when the spider with Lariat locked? Once wrapped in webbing it is an Ob8 Power check to break free from the webbing and reduce the lock.

No, I couldn't find it, so I used the DoF stuff under 'Lariat' in the MonBu. Obs were fairly low in that chart. I'll look up Wrapping for future reference, though!

[luke]

No, I couldn't find it, so I used the DoF stuff under 'Lariat' in the MonBu. Obs were fairly low in that chart. I'll look up Wrapping for future reference, though!

Yeah, this is the clincher for this fight. The wrapping rules would have changed everything. Thanks Verrain!

I shall now move the inevitable hack suggestion posts to a new thread.

[stormsweeper]

There's also webbing nets as described in the same section.

[eruditus]

This is also where the spider should have been gunning for soft squishy parts - rolls to remove Rhys's helmet - especially after the aforementioned wrapping :)

I think Pushes and Tackles would have been pretty effective for the spider if not made an interesting combat.

And don't forget to create stuff that belies the players gear. If they're feeling a little invincible in their armor get some well armored/protected sorcerers or ghosts or things that make the players make Steel tests (horror, surprise, spells, etc).

Finally, I would have totally whipped out a circles check for some ill-placed babe in the woods snagged in the spider's web. That makes the challenge more about rescuing the kid than hacking at spider limbs.

It won't happen for a while - I promised my players four story archs with the spiders ONLY in the background to build up tension - I can't wait to bring spiders to bear on them. For now it's Roden and tribals.

[Rafe]

I think Pushes and Tackles would have been pretty effective for the spider if not made an interesting combat.

They were definitely attempted and fun. Certainly a nice break from Strike, B&S, Strike, etc. At one point, Steve tried a Push, with the intent of smashing the spider on his shield (at the beginning of the fight) into a tree trunk.


Finally, I would have totally whipped out a circles check for some ill-placed babe in the woods snagged in the spider's web. That makes the challenge more about rescuing the kid than hacking at spider limbs.

The funny part was that Pat's character (Shadow) got snared first. Steve's character (Rhys) ran to his aid and was beset upon by another, smaller spider. John (Darien the Strider) actually made himself the target of a lariat snare, standing over Shadow, and allowing the spider to haul him up to where he could use a dagger nice and close. (Ob 3 R&C with his Bow B2 just wasn't gunna work, so he wanted up!)

It was a great combat, but Steve and his spider just had way too much back and forth, even though various actions were attempted. If I made it sound like it was Strike/Block/Strike the whole time, it certainly wasn't. I think he tried every maneuver in the book except Disarm and Tackle/Charge.

[eruditus]

Very cool. So yeah, maybe some armour-smashing VA might be in order for both predator and prey. Bladed Tarsus has VA, right? :)