"Lite" Combat?

[waiwode]

I've been tooling around with BW for a while now. I think it's neato, and really appreciate the amount of free support stuff available here.

But.

I don't really dig scripting. It just seems really "cludgy" to me, and the couple trial combats we've run through have backed this up.

Now I don't mind the three volley framework. And I don't mind the way Reflexes and actions work.

So, is it possible to do away with scripting? Does it undermine the whole system? We played around with it. It certainly changes the system. But does it invalidate it?

Any thoughts, guidelines, other attempts at this on other forums?

Thanks.

Doug.

[Kublai]

Simply put, it's impossible to have fair and neutral simultaneous actions without scripting.

[luke]

As you might imagine, Waiwode, we're pretty big fans of scripting over here. You might find this surprising, but most of us find it faster and cleaner than most other fantasy rpg combat systems.

We use a different script sheet than the one provided on site. Try this (http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/combat_sheet_r1.pdf) and see if it helps.

-L

[waiwode]

Simply put, it's impossible to have fair and neutral simultaneous actions without scripting.

I can see that. I'm not trying to argue whether it's possible. I just may try to get along without it still. I'm incorrigible. And bad. :)


You might find this surprising, but most of us find it faster and cleaner than most other fantasy rpg combat systems.

Surprising!? Yep! :) Hmmm. I may just fool around with a TROS "red die/white die" system. I dunno, I think I'll force a couple willing folks through another combat this weekend.

Yes, I see how the new form may be useful. I'm a little shocked at the amount of tree-killing that might go on! Ah, page protectors and Staedler markers, you are my saviours!

Doug.

[Fourth Horseman]

For short combats with a few players you might also try verbally polling players for their actions within a volley. Although you run the risk of the unscrupulous "gaming" the situation based on the order within which they are polled.

Still, for large combats involving characters of varying reactions written scripting is a must. If you start small and work your way up to the big showdowns it should become second nature.

And I could not, for that matter, conjure up a better system that emulates realtime simultaneous decisionmaking. Give it some time and I'm sure you will come around to the same conclusion.

[luke]

if you want simplicity and quick resolution, and aren't interested in the grit and danger provided in the standard system, just use Versus tests.

Each opponent rolls his skill, the guy who rolls higher wins the combat. Extra successes can be applied to wounds or Locks.

One roll, one resolution. It's low on detail and is based on luck and dice rather than player involvement/interaction, but it gets the job done.

Rich points out something we do at the table, too. For quick dust ups, we don't even ask players to script. We just have everyone chime in with their action and roll the dice. If the combat is still happening after two or three actions, then we got to the script.

Lastly, we laminate those sheets (at Kinkos) and use grease pencils to mark them up. Works great. Very quick!

-L

[luke]

also, there's the simplified melee rules (which I'm not a big fan of).

here. (http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/gangwar_mook_mech.pdfl)

[waiwode]

also, there's the simplified melee rules (which I'm not a big fan of).

here. (http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/gangwar_mook_mech.pdfl)

There is an extra "L" on your link. But me smart, me figure it out more gooder!

It was interesting reading, thanks!

I think my biggest problem with scripting comes from the duration. Having to guess about 3 to 5 actions ahead? It just seems weird.

Now, I'm not a Cool Medieval Martial Artist, or a SCAthian, or anything like that. But I have dabbled in martial arts (like most people these days) and done a bit of bayonet fighting (bit of an occupational hazard, really) and attended one whole single hour session of Fencing. So I don't know anything about swords or medieval combat, but I have tried to swing and thrust thingees at people who were doing the same.

I find that scripting takes away reacting. And in my very limited experience the winner is the guy who reacts quicker and better than the other guy.

For this reason I really do like The Riddle of Steel's combat system. However I like everything else about The Burning Wheel more.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from in my attempt to sidle around scripting.

Doug.

[Bill Cook]

One thing that helps me approach scripting is having a theme for the exchange. That, and using pre-written scripts as templates.


"Lock and Stab": Block (Advance); Lock, Lock (Maintain); Strike (Maintain).
"Skewer": Block (Advance); Block (Footwork); Strike, Strike (Maintain).
"Cleave": Strike (Advance); Set, G. Strike (Footwork); Block (Maintain).
"Get off!": Break, Break (Maintain); Block (Withdraw); Strike (Footwork).
"Punish the Aggressor": Counter (Footwork); Strike, Counter (Maintain); Block (Maintain).


The reaction dynamic you describe is, I feel, expressed by adjusting your script through forfeiture. Have you had any success using this rule to predict (and thereby, defeat) one of your players? I know with my friends, (at least one of them, anyway,) I was able, within a few exchanges, to place second-action Strikes on blank spots in his script, while accurately matching his Strikes with Blocks.

[luke]

Having to guess about 3 to 5 actions ahead? .... And in my very limited experience the winner is the guy who reacts quicker and better than the other guy.


Hi Doug,

Forgive me if my answer is short, it's late and I'm about to leave on vacation (tomorrow) (and I want to play Halo).

Your "guess" comment is a dead give away to me that you need to rummage around the system a little bit more. Once you get a basic feel for the moves and weapons, there's very little guess work involved. You can predict, within a margin, what your opponent is going to do and choose your actions accordingly.

It's all about thinking quickly, smartly and sticking to your plan.

I'm certain your limited experience has shown you that you never quite know what your opponent is going to do next -- but you can predict within a small range based on the cues that he's given you.

"The guy who reacts quicker and better" in Burning Wheel is the guy who puts together a more viable hand of moves for that exchange. We've simply taken initiative and action declaration and turned them on their collective head. If you want to be the guy who reacts quicker and better, you've got to prove it in this system... by playing intelligently.

Like ROS, BW combat is a game within the game. It's our way to simulate the fear and uncertainty of life and death combat. In no way is it meant to simulate reality.

-L

[jc_madden]

My best analogy to how fighting in BW works is the sword fight between Wesley and Inigo in the Princess bride. Both are accomplished swordsmen having studied various styles. Each one knows what the other is going to do based on stance and form. I have practice martial arts myself and even competed and I can tell you that a lot of planning goes into the fight even before the first punch is landed. Another good example is the fight seens The Last Samurai.

Another beautiful anaolgy is from the fiction book "The Darkness that Comes Before" (which would make a KICKASS BW game btw, but due to it's mature and morally deficient subject matter it would not do well mass-produced) the main character is a martial monk who has a power that is basically called "sensing the moment that comes before." The basic principle is that if you are "reacting" you're dead. You must predict and anticipate your enemy and "see" what he is going to do and act "before" him. As he describes it the ultimate moment of victory is sometimes distant and hard to see, sometimes it is very near. This is based on the level of skill of his opponent.

[friartuck]

"The Darkness That Comes Before"? Who wrote that? Is it still in print?

[jc_madden]

R. Scott Bakker and it only came out last year. The second in the Trilogy JUST came out but I have not read it. The series is called "The Prince of Nothing Trilogy" and it is fabulous. To whet your whistle here's a bit of a back-story: "2000 years ago an army of darkness sweeps the land in an apocalypse. A royal family flees to a hidden sanctuary and promptly contracts a plague leaving only the young prince alive, he is adopted by a small tribe of eastern monks also fleeing the devastation. Together they form a culture that merges western and eastern ways and powers of mind control and martial arts. Now the signs point to the foretold second apocalypse."

[friartuck]

Nice. I'm going to go check this out on Amazon now.

[waiwode]

To be fair, "East" and "West" don't really do The Prince of Nothing justice.

Especially since the monks are far more "alien and immoral" than Eastern.

Still, the books are not your 'standard fantasy" stuff. The world is very cool, the characters neat, the magic "system" is awesome.

BW "syllables" tie in quite nicely, although many fewer syllables are required to come up with some pretty devestating effects. Still, the magic system reads very well.

Doug.[/b]

[jc_madden]

Very true, I was just trying to be brief. Don't want to give too much away just wet the appetite if you know what I mean.

[obatron]

I like the scripting, but it does lend to some consternation with my players (as such that we haven't played b/w in several months now.) I ran into the same problem with GURPS 3E combat. However, they had these wonderful printable index cards that helped out greatly. Reading this thread, it came to mind how you could one could create cards in a similar fashion to do the script.

Maybe have one card that indicates your current stat, then three different color index card decks with the various actions in a volley. Hmmm...maybe I'll test them out with my players and see if it goes any easier...although I do like that new scripting sheet...