Superior Quality Items

[Durgil]

Besides what is mentioned with the Elves and the Dwarves in the Character Burner, were there any rules developed for craftsmen to create superior quality weapons and armour? I saw that under the section Testing Skills in the main rule book,

...These extra successes do not allow characters to craft "superior quality" items. That is a whole different story, to be detailed in the forthcoming Craftsman Appendix.
I didn't see anything in either book's appendices. Does forthcoming here mean that it hasn't been written yet; if not could someone point me in the right direction?

[Viper]

Means it's not written yet, AFAIK.

[Durgil]

Bummer! :x

[Angaros]

Dang! I was thinking of asking the same thing myself. Got a skilled armourer in the group that is eager to make stuff during the winter months when adventuring is slow.

[luke]

all i was trying to say in the rules is that I don't want luck to determine SQ. I want obstacles set beforehand.

So let's start coming up with some obstacles right here!

First let's compile a basic list of stuff for craftsman, and then toss in SQ obstacles.

If we do this right, we should be able to add on obstacle penalties and allow the craftsman to determine the quality of their final product.

I've got some notes on this, but I'd love hear your thoughts.

-L

[mike_ravenwood]

I think thier should be various qualities of material and tools as well. Obviously you need basic equipment and a source material before you can begin. If the tools or materials your character is working with are of a fine quality then give bonus dice to your crafting skill. Say...(just off the top of my head)

Poor quality tools +2 Ob
Run of the Mill : no modifier
Superior Quality Tools: +1 Dice

Poor materials: +2 Ob
Run of the Mill: no modifier
Superior Quality: -1 Ob

Then set the Ob of SQ output to say +4 or +6 to the normal OB, something only a Master Craftsman taking his time could accomplish.

Also you could say that either the tools or the materials must be SQ to get SQ output, unless you have Gray Craft Skill. With Heroic Crafting you can make SQ items without tools or materials being being SQ to start.

This brings up another question I had. How does a character build the Sorceror's tools? What skills and OBs for making the different matricies?

[Durgil]

This sounds like a great idea, Luke! I'll start looking now through some of my books on medieval history and try to write up some ideas.

[Durgil]

Well, I have agonized over this for a week now and here are some of the ideas that I have had.

For the simulationists out there, I thought you could base total number of successes needed on the typical, proficient craftsman (i.e. exponent of 5) and how many successes they should typically get per day (average would be 2). Take for example a hauberk of mail. Let’s say that you determine, as GM, that it should take around 45 days. With the above numbers, then it should probably require 90 total successes to complete. Everyday that the armourer spends the day working on the mail hauberk, he/she would roll the dice pool and add up the number of successes to the running total.

For the rest of us, I don't have any hard fast numbers, but I do have a few suggestions to think about. First of all, there are plenty of games out there that have already come up with fairly acceptable time requirements for making items. Anything that is fairly complex, bordering on an art-form such as sword making, the number of required successes should be high enough in a single dice roll that only masters that are working carefully and diligently will have a better than 50/50 chance of making a superior quality sword. As for the required times, I suggest Chivalry and Sorcery, the Rebirth. There is also ICE's ...And a 10-Foot Pole.

[Fourth Horseman]

That's a whole lot of tests. Here's a thought. Why not adopt the martial arts rules in the back of the burner? There, you test three times for a special move and once you have it you can execute it according to a normal in game obstacle using your base skill. The obstacle of the three time test for the move increases with its power and complexity.

I could see a similar set up for high quality weapons and armor as a master smith increases his competency making certain kinds of items.

Example, a dagger blade would warrant a 3 ob test, done three times to gain the capability of forging a high quality dagger. Once you have the dagger making "move" you simply make a routine test, modified by the kind of equipment and supplies you have to forge the dagger. Extra successes decreases the amount of time to make the dagger.

The top of the weapon forging pyramid would be something like making a Tachi or a basket hilted rapier. Where you would need to overcome something like a 7 obstacle test, done three times, before picking up this weapon making "move."

I could even see master smiths perfecting even more outrageous "moves" for adding special properties to their weapons. Everything from perfecting a distinctive tang, to pumping up VA, to making cheesey blades pop out of the sword on dramatic cue.

[Yagathai]

Heh heh heh. Tang.

[luke]

Some basic thoughts (from my notes):

don't forget that we need to define what a SQ item is.

For weapons, in general, it's an increase in VA or the addition of a balance die.

For armor, it's the reroll of 1s.

Weapons consist of: Power, Add, VA, Speed (and Balance)

Armor consists of: Dice, clumsy weight penalties, and Armor failure/1s.


For weapons: modifying Add should be the hardest, then Power, then Speed, then Balance then VA.

For armor: modifying dice should be hardest, then clumsy weight, then 1s.

-L

[Durgil]

To be honest, I wasn't thinking on the level of weapon and armour attributes, but on just making a superior item as they appear in the rules. As I stated earlier, a master craftsman should be able to create a superior item if they work diligently and carefully on their own. A typical craftsman should need a fair amount of help with everyone involved working carefully and diligently. This would be for anything complex such as metal armour or mostly metal weapons requiring a fair amount of balance such as throwing knives or just about any type of sword, IMO.

[Angaros]

Balance die? What's that? Where can I read about it? I get the feeling I've missed something somewhere...

Not all items can be made by one person. Some requires the cooperation of two or more to pull it off. This mostly applies to making large stuff of course. As much as I like the idea of coming up with a number of successes, it fails to reflect the complexity of certain items. Some stuff is difficult enough that it either requires a detailed and understandable blueprint for a moderately skilled person to be able to build it, and there are items even more complicated than that. I'd try and define categories of modifications and then simplify it all to get more in tune with BW's level of detail. Categories could be: tools, aid (like helping hands), preparation, intstruction/plans and familiarity. It might be best to have them all modify Obstacle (except for helping hands which is already established as a procedure in the rules). I do however like the idea of having blueprints or instruction temporarily adding to your exponent to a set maximum. This could work for lore skills as well. Having access to the vatican's library and a skilled librarian would surely give your Catholicism skill a boost.

[Thor]

Balance die? What's that? Where can I read about it? I get the feeling I've missed something somewhere...

A Balance die adds +1D to the skill you are using the tool with. For instance, all Dwarven Arms get a Balance die.


Not all items can be made by one person. Some requires the cooperation of two or more to pull it off. This mostly applies to making large stuff of course. As much as I like the idea of coming up with a number of successes, it fails to reflect the complexity of certain items. Some stuff is difficult enough that it either requires a detailed and understandable blueprint for a moderately skilled person to be able to build it, and there are items even more complicated than that. I'd try and define categories of modifications and then simplify it all to get more in tune with BW's level of detail. Categories could be: tools, aid (like helping hands), preparation, intstruction/plans and familiarity. It might be best to have them all modify Obstacle (except for helping hands which is already established as a procedure in the rules). I do however like the idea of having blueprints or instruction temporarily adding to your exponent to a set maximum. This could work for lore skills as well. Having access to the vatican's library and a skilled librarian would surely give your Catholicism skill a boost.

Almost all of this stuff can be handled within the existing mechanics. Tools are already required for almost all craft skills. They don't give a bonus, but you'll be at increased Obstacle without them. Some exceptional tools may offer a Balance die.

Additional hands give helping dice. Those with a B3 or less in the skill give +1D. Those with B4 or greater give +2D.

Blueprints, instructions and other forms of preparation are well represented by the Working Carefully and Working Diligently rules, I think.

[mike_ravenwood]

We could make crafting similar to learning new spells. Say there are three phases to crafting, and depending on the types of materails and the desired outcome (poor, run of the mill, or SQ) you can increase or decrease the obstacle for a particular step to change the outcome. Other sepcial features must be performed durning a certain step to provide and effect.

Call the steps, Preparing the Materials, Shaping, and Assembly.

Now I'm not that up on medievil blacksmithing but I understand the general concepts. Different material made vast difference on weapon and armor technology. For example the ablility to make iron or steel was a major technological achievement over previous materials and differing techniques for preparing the materials was an important factor in the use of the weapon. Making an axe required different skills and knowledge than producing a katana.

Another example could be making a cavalry saber. Materials and Assembly would be essentially the same, but during the Shaping phase the curved blade would be added to provide the added benifit on horseback.

For Assembly that could play into armor modifiers, like clumsy weight penalties, but also the reduced effects of 1s in armor rolls could be included in this by improving on how the interconnected plates and bits of chain are held together.

Anyway just an idea, and probably should get my ass to class!

[tetsujin28]

Speaking of superior items: what does purchasing a superior missile weapon do for you?

[Thor]

Speaking of superior items: what does purchasing a superior missile weapon do for you?

Huh. I couldn't find anything. Personally, I would give it +1 VA: simple and powerful.

[luke]

refer to this thread:
http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=296&highlight=superior+q


PQ missile weapons are Ob 2 to hit -- same as for PQ melee weapons (on pg 29 of the CB).

SQ missile weapons grant +1D to the wielder's skill to reflect their excellent balance and accuracy.

SQ can also be represented by granting instead of normal ol'hunting arrows, access to a quiver full of the special heads listed on p196 of the BW).