Questions re: Avoid 'into strike'

[tetsujin28]

BW82 mentions Avoiding "into a Strike to get" the character "closer to or past his opponent" (emphasis in original). Does this mean that you can effectively Avoid as a means of Getting Inside? As Avoid is defensive and modified by Defensive Stance (unlike Get Inside), it seems like this would be extremely easy to do, even if the Ob is modified by +1. If so, you could script Avoid (inside) - Lock as an very effective tactic. Am I missing something?

[Kaare Berg]

Nope,

it is a valid defensive tactic. Smart one to, if you don't get hit.
Beware Knife-fighters in BW. I've had Shadow tainted Sword-singers cut to ribbons by a thief on the inside.

It is risky though. A +1 ob on an avoid can have fatal or at least painfull consequenses. And if you fail the avoid, well you've failed to get inside. So you are lefft out there with a lock, all set up for that nice next chop.

This might be different with the new movement rules they are working on (I got lost on page four, summary please :cry: ).

K

[Thor]

Just as a clarification, you STILL have to script a Get Inside to get on the Inside, even if you Avoid In. The difference is that you remain in Striking Distance. With a regular Avoid, you move at your Sprint away from your enemy, which generally takes you Outside Striking Distance.

The Revision will change a lot of this up by using Positioning Tests to determine striking distance, rather than counting paces as the current version does. It gets rid of the Get Inside action, which you would now achieve simply by scripting Close as your tandem Movement action and succeeding in the Positioning Test. So it will now be eminently possible to script Close and Avoid at the same time (and it is an incredibly effective tactic for knife fighters).

Check out this thread (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=766) for more info.

[luke]

in BW Classic (heh), the Avoid into was purposed as Thor described: Instead of counting paces backwards, you could count paces forwards (for the +1 Ob pen), it wasn't intended to substitute for a Get Inside. Sorry for the unclear wording.

As Kaare pointed out, being on the Inside can be a huge advantage -- getting their shouldn't be taken lightly.

-L

[jc_madden]

in BW Classic (heh)

TM. :lol:

[Yagathai]

<BGD>BW Classic, aka The Version That Doesn't Suck, you mean?</BGD>

[Kaare Berg]

BW:Classic, the mark of a true beliver.

But seriously, taking a +1 ob to your avoid is risky. But with all risks come rewards.

[tetsujin28]

+1 Ob is nothing if you're in Defensive Stance. I mean, you're at x1 1/2, rounding up. Even a guy with an average 4d Speed will be rolling 6d!

[tetsujin28]

JWith a regular Avoid, you move at your Sprint away from your enemy, which generally takes you Outside Striking Distance.:? Pg. 82 states, "move away or to the side a number of paces equal to their dash rate" (emphasis mine, and dash being equal to jog, as per BW: 70). Has this been changed?
Check out this thread (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=766) for more info. I have to admit, I've found that discussion very confusing :? And what I did understand, I'm not too sure I'm crazy about. Being a big minis fan, it seems like a lot of the tactical counting I find fun is taken away, causing movement to just be an amorphous blob.

[Kaare Berg]

against an opponent most likely going agressive 4D into 6D, so its 6D against 6D. He's up one success. He hit for a sup, alternate wound penalties, and you're suddenly on the outside with +2 ob and with a wasted action.

Lather, wash rinse and repeat until your character is so much Kebab.

Unless you succeede, which makes the other guy most likely to become fancy foreign food.

You are playing with fire (or rather sharp pointy objects, point is still the same). Take care if you use this tactic with your favourite PC. That's all I'm saying.

[tetsujin28]

Well it's certainly not something you use against someone in Agg stance, unless you have a superior Speed. But it's great for run-of-the-mill folks. And the clarification that it's not actually a move to the 'inside' makes a big difference in its usefulness.

[luke]

I have to admit, I've found that discussion very confusing :? And what I did understand, I'm not too sure I'm crazy about. Being a big minis fan, it seems like a lot of the tactical counting I find fun is taken away, causing movement to just be an amorphous blob.

Damn.
:oops:

You're right, we took out all the counting paces. Everywhere. With bows, with melee, with spells.

I'm sorry that you liked the counting paces, but you were in the distinct minority. It was a sticking point in every demo.

The new options are flawed in that: they are fluid, they are quick to resolve, they are dynamic, they are consistent across all rules sets and they are tactical in a different way. But they don't count paces.

You're free to stick with BW Classic, though. Those rules work fine -- I just wanted them to work differently.

Where's the Bitter Gravedigger when you need him? he should be giving me a sharp dressing down about now.

[Yagathai]

Personally, the Bitter Gravedigger likes this idea -- but at the same time it's clear that Luke Crane is alienating a key portion of his game's playerbase with this change. How can he expect to expand his game's sphere of influence when he won't cater to pace-counters? What a fool.

[tetsujin28]

Hey, Luke, no worries, eh? :) I have a feeling that if I get to actually play the new rules, instead of just reading them, then I might have a different feeling. I'm also the guy who couldn't figure out the new armour rules, so maybe it's a trend with me :wink: