Task Clarity

[eruditus]

Okay so first off is page 41 wrong? First sentance says "Task - Indicate how you want your character to act. Incorporate a skill or stat into your description. " That means the person playing the character, right?

Secondly, is there any reason for a GM to not give a player what he wants aside from dickery? Is it within a GM's role to say "I know you want to use read but I'm going to have you use book-wise instead."

Again let me reiterate. I believe the rules indicate the player states task and intent. The GM then reiterates the correct task based on what the player describes and sets an ob.

Are we really argueing?

[Paul B]

Okay so first off is page 41 wrong? First sentance says "Task - Indicate how you want your character to act. Incorporate a skill or stat into your description. " That means the person playing the character, right?

Secondly, is there any reason for a GM to not give a player what he wants aside from dickery? Is it within a GM to say "I know you want to use read but I'm going to have you use book-wise instead."

The GM has to listen to the intent, and the player's description of the task he *wants* to use to achieve that intent, and make sure the player's description is potentially capable of achieving the intent.

Probably half the time -- talking my AP experience here -- the player has a task-intent disconnect. Either they're unclear on their intent, or they're engaging in unnecessary mental gymnastics to hammer their square-peg skill into the round-hole intent. And then I have to step in and say "...mmm, you know, this scene really feels more like it's about staying hidden in the shadows (stealth) than it does about hiding amongst crowds (inconspicuous)."

So when that happens, there's usually a quick revision/negotiation with the player that goes something like this: "What? You suck. Okay...okay, I'll work my way through the crowds instead, trying to lay low." Because he DOES want to use his better skill. And that's typically fine by me -- that's just the player giving me camera instructions: If this fucks up, it's because someone spots me in the crowd and not because someone spots me in the shadows. No biggie.

p.

[Llewelynn]

The guy that GM's for us has a pretty good balance in this. And there are plenty of times that a player may lobby to use a skill that isn't the best fit, consciously or unconsciouly, trying to get an advance.

For example, I might want my knight to draw hostile attention from bad guys and say, "I try to call the brigands out and keep them away from the princess, daring them to come fight me. I'd like to use Command and FoRK in Intimidate." I might say this because I'm just about to learn something in one of those, or in my mind, that seems how it's set up.

But the GM says, "To me, that sounds more like using your Conspicuous to draw their attention, and Intimidate would seem to work against you. But I'll let you FoRK in Persuasion as you try to browbeat them into fighting you."

We may banter back and forth a bit, and if I can quickly make a case, he may change his mind. But the GM is perfectly in the right to enforce the Task based on what you've said and how he sees it playing out. Just because I suggest the skill or stat I think I'd use doesn't mean I'm right.

[stormsweeper]

Again I will refer you to "What Ability do I Roll?" on p. 27

[eruditus]

Right. This what I'm saying. It clearly states that the GM has no role in stating the Task. The GM has a role in making the players wishes more obvious and ensure the fiction makes sense but no where does it say the GM has final decision on what Skill/Stat is rolled.

Stormy just pointed out another paragraph that supports my point. It clearly states "once the description of the task and intent has been stated at the table, the ability needed to complete that action is usually pretty obvious ..." it goes on to say the GM should press the player if not obvious.

Also page 27, "by describing how his character will undertake this intent, he defines the task."

I agree the GM is there to help the process along. Why are people telling Aramis the GM sets the Task?

[Llewelynn]

I think you're arguing a distinction without difference.

The player is going to state what he wants to do, and usually, directly or indirectly, he'll say how he wants to do it. The GM is going to finish that out. The GM is going to tell the player what he's hearing, and if that differs from what the player has asked for. Once they have some sort of agreement about what skill or stat is being tested, the GM finishes setting the task by assigning an obstacle. (Even this last part can be fluid, as the GM might give the player a choice..."I'll give you an Ob3 Stealth or an Ob 4 Inconspicuous to sneak across town.")

I think the thing to remember though, is that while everyone is cooperating in trying to set up an engaging play experience, in the end, someone has to have the deciding authority. And since the game is all about Intent and Task, that's usually where this authority will be reflected.

Or are you genuinely arguing that the player will always choose what skill or stat to test, and then the GM just sets an Ob based on what the player says?

[Judd]

Don,

Skill descriptions say what tasks the skills can and can't effect.

[luke]

I always find page 268 of the brown book to be a helpful guide when such confusion arises.

[eruditus]

In this thread
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8359&nojs=1#goto_displaymodes
Dwight and Stormsweeper both said, specifically that the GM claims Task.

Based on the rules I disagree. I agree with Luke that the GM has a role to help the game run smoothly and help system and fiction flow but that hardly says he sets Task along with ob.

I was first thinking it is a final arbiter thing. Really though the player can reframe his statement to better fit the description of the skill at hand. The player and the rules are final arbiters of what dice hit the able.

So what I'd like to know is other than the general "GM helps move the game along" where does anyone claiming that the GM sets Task when the rules clearly say the player sets intent and task and the GM sets the ob. Saying otherwise just muddles things especially when folks are first digesting the rules. No?

[luke]

Let's break it down:

The player says what he wants and how he intends to get it. Pages 26-27.

The GM negotiates with the player about tasks appropriate to intent and intent appropriate to task. Pages 27 and 268.

GM sets an obstacle based on the task.

The player gathers dice from abilities, help, FoRKs and artha.

The dice are rolled.