Miscellaneous questions

[-Ice]

I went and read and re-read the sections of Mouse Guard that I felt I needed to touch up on (which is a lot, but that's okay since this is a new system for me), and had with me a handy piece of paper and a pen. Here are the miscellaneous questions I've come up with, they aren't really sorted so I'll just throw them out:

1. Group Compromise (p.131, 3rd bullet) - There is a phrase "one character takes it for the team." Takes what? Is this another way of saying "one mouse dies while the others take lesser penalties"? Just making sure I get this right and not get lost in translation.

2. Major Compromise (p.131, last bullet) - The players win but their guardmice are barely alive? Then how do they "heal up" if they're lying on the ground inches from death? Won't they starve to death, die from dehydration, or get picked by the next predator/bird that comes along? I'm not exactly looking for a ruling here, but more of "how would you describe this situation to your players if this happened"?

3. Clean the Slate (p.228) - How is a skill's rating reduced? Do the Injured and Sick conditions count (-1D to skills)? Or is there a way to reduce rating that is like taxing Nature (ie, the skill then has 2 ratings, a "taxed skill" rating and the true rating)? If getting Injured or Sick cleans the slate, then boy, is this one tough penalty!! All checks (pass or fail) on all skills are wiped out? Sucks!

4. Setting Obs (p.251) - Setting an Ob for a Pathfinder test to blaze a new trail to a town a day's travel away (short journey) is Ob 6, correct? Looking at Saxon's character sheet, even he will have a difficult time with it. Even with Kenzie's Weather Watcher (+1D) and Liam's Scout (+1D), he would still have to have only 1 coward for him to succeed!! Wow, that IS difficult.

5. Referring to #4, what options are left to Saxon to increase his chances? I know he can tap nature to add dice, and maybe spend a fate point if he has any sixes, but are there any other options?

6. Can a mouse use the Hunter skill in a Fight conflict assuming: a) He has NO Fighter skill? or b) His Hunter skill is higher than his Fighter skill?

7. Bitter Trait (p.262) - How can this trait (and other negatively-sounding traits) be used for advantage (+1D)? Again, I'm not exactly looking for a ruling here, but more of "how would a player describe using this trait to help his mouse"?

8. Mouse Ages (p.298) - Do mice age like people? Are they teens @ 13-18, adults @ 19-24/25-40/41-60, and retire after 60? I am asking because, well, this is fantasy and I would like to know how it works here, in the real world I cannot imagine a mouse living to 60!

9. Referring to #8, how old is Gwendolyn, more or less?

10. How does a mouse gain/lose traits in play? Is there a specific rule for this or is this simply up to the GM and the players?

11. Can a player spend a check to recover taxed Nature (p.233)? Because if not, then boy, is recovering Nature one tough challenge! Assuming a 2-mice patrol, each mouse may only recover nature every-other game session, or if they rest up for the winter! For a 4-mice patrol, assuming the group games once a week, each mouse may only recover 1 point of Nature per month!

12. Can a player earn both a Fate point and a Persona point in one session for both playing on and against his belief during play?


Looking forward to the responses! I feel like I'm getting a better and better handle on this system and it looks very promising and fun, but I'm surprised to see a lot of tough rules here and there!!

[luke]

1. You have correctly interpreted the euphemism.

2. When it happened in our game, the players crawled back to town.

3. Reduced by failing to recover from the Injured or Sick conditions.

6. Hunter is only for the Fight Animal conflict.

10. Check out the Winter section for starters.

12. In our group, if a player earns a persona point for a Belief, he's ineligible for the fate point from that session.

[-Ice]

Thanks for the answers, Luke!


3. Reduced by failing to recover from the Injured or Sick conditions.Does this mean that if a mouse gets hit with Injured or Sick, he does not have to "clean the slate," but if he fails his checks to recover, he has to "clean the slate"??


10. Check out the Winter section for starters.Page number please?

[Daniel H.]

Page number please?
Winter Session, page 158.

[illern]

7. Bitter Trait (p.262) - How can this trait (and other negatively-sounding traits) be used for advantage (+1D)? Again, I'm not exactly looking for a ruling here, but more of "how would a player describe using this trait to help his mouse"?

As a GM I would allow for a player of a Bitter mouse to say that he/she wants an extra die for their mouse when someone tries to persuade or seduce them (in a broad meaning) because their mouse has seen a lot and therefore is harder to fool and because the mouse is naturally pessimistic and instinctively searches for hidden agendas and so on and therefore is harder to fool.


11. Can a player spend a check to recover taxed Nature (p.233)? Because if not, then boy, is recovering Nature one tough challenge! Assuming a 2-mice patrol, each mouse may only recover nature every-other game session, or if they rest up for the winter! For a 4-mice patrol, assuming the group games once a week, each mouse may only recover 1 point of Nature per month!

The player doing the prolouge can also raise a taxed Nature one step for their mouse.


12. Can a player earn both a Fate point and a Persona point in one session for both playing on and against his belief during play?

I will allow that as a GM if I don't feel that the players get too many bonuses. It's a matter of balance I think.

[Indy Pete]

Does this mean that if a mouse gets hit with Injured or Sick, he does not have to "clean the slate," but if he fails his checks to recover, he has to "clean the slate"??
See page 128 through 129.

If a mouse gets hit with the Injured Condition, then they can make an Ob4 Health Test to recover. If that test fails, the Injured Condition remains and the mouse can seek out a Healer. The Healer then makes an Ob3 Healer Test. If the test fails, the Injured Condition is removed, but one Ability or Skill is reduced permanently by one.

Now see page 228:


If an ability or skill’s maximum rating is reduced due to depletion, Injury or Sickness, its tests for advancement for the current rating are erased.
I hope that clears that up.

With regard to your other question about Winter.


Page number please?
153

Cheers
Pete

[illern]

7. Bitter Trait (p.262) - How can this trait (and other negatively-sounding traits) be used for advantage (+1D)? Again, I'm not exactly looking for a ruling here, but more of "how would a player describe using this trait to help his mouse"?

Another example:

Fat
Maybe the mouse could get an extra die for finding someone involved in food production, bakers, cooks, apiarists (honey ought to be able to get mice fat) and so on. A fat mouse might be able to stand brewage with alcohol a little better than other mice.

[Daniel H.]

If a mouse gets hit with the Injured Condition, then they can make an Ob4 Health Test to recover. If that test fails, the Injured Condition remains and the mouse can seek out a Healer. The Healer then makes an Ob3 Healer Test. If the test fails, the Injured Condition is removed, but one Ability or Skill is reduced permanently by one.
N.B. this would cost a player two checks, one for the initial recovery test and one for the scene with the healer. Unless, of course, the healer is another player, in which case he or she could spend a check to have a scene with the injured mouse.

[-Ice]

As a GM I would allow for a player of a Bitter mouse to say that he/she wants an extra die for their mouse when someone tries to persuade or seduce them (in a broad meaning) because their mouse has seen a lot and therefore is harder to fool and because the mouse is naturally pessimistic and instinctively searches for hidden agendas and so on and therefore is harder to fool.


Another example:

Fat
Maybe the mouse could get an extra die for finding someone involved in food production, bakers, cooks, apiarists (honey ought to be able to get mice fat) and so on. A fat mouse might be able to stand brewage with alcohol a little better than other mice.Ah, excellent examples! Thanks!


The player doing the prolouge can also raise a taxed Nature one step for their mouse.That's exactly what I'm talking about. Nature can be recovered in only 3 ways: prologue, absence, or winter. I'm guessing nobody goes into winter once every month, so the only real way for non-absentee players to recover is with a prologue, which means only ONE player can recover ONE point of nature per session! That's a lot of tough love!


I will allow that as a GM if I don't feel that the players get too many bonuses. It's a matter of balance I think.Yeah, I think I'll have to game a few more times to get a feel for this. I'm a generous GM so I think I'll be ruling this in favor of awesomeness and cool-factor.



See page 128 through 129.Ah!! So a permanent reduction would then mean "clean the slate," but not a temporary reduction due to conditions!! Excellent! I love beating my players up, but my original interpretation seemed too harsh, it's nice to find a clarification on that one!


N.B. this would cost a player two checks, one for the initial recovery test and one for the scene with the healer. Unless, of course, the healer is another player, in which case he or she could spend a check to have a scene with the injured mouse.Two checks sounds reasonable. One check to see if he can get over the condition by himself, and another to get help if he fails. Of course, the player can go directly to a healer, and that only costs one check.



Thanks for the excellent replies guys! I'm loving this game system more and more (makes sense the more you use it) and I'm very thankful for the patient and friendly help!

Allow me to bump up questions #4, #5, #8, and #9! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these!

[illern]

4. Setting Obs (p.251) - Setting an Ob for a Pathfinder test to blaze a new trail to a town a day's travel away (short journey) is Ob 6, correct? Looking at Saxon's character sheet, even he will have a difficult time with it. Even with Kenzie's Weather Watcher (+1D) and Liam's Scout (+1D), he would still have to have only 1 coward for him to succeed!! Wow, that IS difficult.

Alles in Ordnung I think. That should be a hard task. My players had a similar task, not a new road but to repair a road washed away by the melting snow and spring rain. It's not a task for one or two mice. It's a task for a patrol beefed up with a team of laborers or road builders. That's how my players' patrol solved the problem. Sometimes when something's really hard I think that that should be interpreted as a task for a group, maybe even a large group (which can be lead and administered by a patrol).

[Daniel H.]

4. Setting Obs (p.251) - Setting an Ob for a Pathfinder test to blaze a new trail to a town a day's travel away (short journey) is Ob 6, correct? Looking at Saxon's character sheet, even he will have a difficult time with it. Even with Kenzie's Weather Watcher (+1D) and Liam's Scout (+1D), he would still have to have only 1 coward for him to succeed!! Wow, that IS difficult.
As Kristoffer notes, blazing a new trail is no small task.


5. Referring to #4, what options are left to Saxon to increase his chances? I know he can tap nature to add dice, and maybe spend a fate point if he has any sixes, but are there any other options?
Saxon can use Persona to add dice or tap his Nature (blazing trails isn't covered by Mouse Nature). Also, he could help himself with a relevant Wise. But otherwise, I think you have it. Skill + others' help + help himself + Fate to open sixes and Persona to add dice/tap Nature. I think the rulebook has an upper limit on how much Fate/Persona can be spent on a single roll.

If the trailblazing was some type of extended conflict, however, he could use relevant gear, too.

[noclue]

The question isn't really even how difficult it is to blaze a new trail. It's how difficult is it to do without getting angry, tired, sick or getting interupted by something unexpected?

As for additional dice, would any tools help? Don't have the book here. (Oops...this was answered above).

[illern]

The question isn't really even how difficult it is to blaze a new trail. It's how difficult is it to do without getting angry, tired, sick or getting interupted by something unexpected?

That's a good point and one of the things I like with the system. You just don't pass or fail, you can also pass with a price. As a GM I think you have to set a high value of Obstacle for some things that maybe isn't that hard to succeed on but which you can't succeed on without getting tired and so on. As a GM you also have to look at tasks where someone else has decided on the value of Obstacle and decide wether it's something that's actually hard to do (fail => Twist) or something that's hard to succeed without any price (fail => succeed with Conditions). At least that's how I see it.

[-Ice]

Thanks on #4, at least I know I'm reading the instructions right!

On #5, I forgot about simply spending Persona. Somewhere along the line, I read about spending a Persona point to tap Nature vs spending a point to add a die, decided that tapping Nature was more "efficient," and forgot the second option. Thanks for reminding me about help/teamwork and wises too!

I agree with your points, noclue! If I want the players to have it easy, I can assign an easy Ob, but if I want them to get a twist, I can assign a higher Ob... This pass or pass-but-with-a-twist-or-a-condition game mechanic needs a bit of getting used to, since I came from a pass-or-fail game mechanic.

[-Ice]

Any takers for questions 8 & 9?

[Daniel H.]

Illern and Ice,

I don't prefer to speak for him, but I think you all are misunderstanding Noclue. The Mouse Guard book is very clear on how to set Obstacles. Where it allows leeway is for the GM to adjudicate failed tests. The players may succeed with a condition or encounter a twist. Either way the game keeps moving. It's not the GM's place to adjust the Ob based on whether he or she thinks a twist or a condition is a more appropriate consequence for a failed test.

[noclue]

Daniel understands me. My point was just that in the OP example, its not that Saxon can't even blaze short trails. Saxon is an awesome trail blazer, he blaze trails like nobody's business. But, blazing even short trails is at best tiring, angering and hungry-making business and at worst frought with unknown peril.

This struck me after considering another thread about baking. Baking for a large group of mice is like an Ob 4, which seemed way hard. My initial reaction was no way a trained baker fails that often! Then I thought about how tired and hungry I would be after all that dough kneading.

[Twice Born]

That's an good way of explaining it noclue. You shouldn't be afraid of makeing it to hard. Usually, if it's to easy it becomes unrealistic. Like if the baker made bread for an army of mice without even breaking a sweat.

[cathexis]

Any takers for questions 8 & 9?

I don't have my book in front of me but I think it roughly maps to human years. Also, Gwyn is in her mid 40's I think (unless she's statted out somewhere and my lack of memorizing Mouse Guard has blinded me to the truth).

[jessecoombs]

I don't have my book in front of me but I think it roughly maps to human years. Also, Gwyn is in her mid 40's I think (unless she's statted out somewhere and my lack of memorizing Mouse Guard has blinded me to the truth).

Page 192. But an age isn't listed. Just use what works.

[Twice Born]

Acording to this (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7618) thread, David himself claims she's rather young. I would say at the very most 30.

[-Ice]

Wanderer, I did understand what noclue was saying and I agree that the book does explain how to set Obs properly --- what I mean is that his point of "achieving the goal without getting conditions because of it" was a part of the Ob tests that I didn't consider before. Therefore, in my above example (new trail Ob 6), I can lower my Ob if I want to "cut them some slack" (maybe there are good vantage points to make Pathfinder easier) if my players are hurting or raise the Ob for a really test-y test and end up with either a juicy twist or a condition. Again, I know the book states how to set Obs properly, I just "found out" that I can play with this a bit to get an effect.

I ask about Gwen because 40 seems about right, maybe even 50 or 60. She is, after all, the Matriarch and I don't think they hand those out to mice in their 20s. But in the last comic, she kisses Saxon like they have something going and I look at Saxon's stats and he's 28! Is there some Ashton Kutcher-Demi Moore thing going on here? Anyway, the info would also be useful for handing out ages to player and npc mice later on. I'm coming from D&D wherein dwarves and elves age differently from humans so I had to know if there was something like that going on here too.

[Daniel H.]

I know the book states how to set Obs properly, I just "found out" that I can play with this a bit to get an effect.
Where are you seeing that you can “play with” the Obstacles? That’s not what James and I are saying. Look again at his baking bread example. Baking bread for a group of mice is everyday work, but it’s still difficult. How does the Baker accomplish this regularly? She gets hungry doing it. Same with Saxon blazing the new trail. He’s not going to fail; he’s going to succeed with a condition.

Don’t try to reinforce this (or generate twists) by messing with the Obstacles. It is the nature of players and their dice to create all sorts of complications to the situations with which they are presented. Furthermore, both passed and failed tests are necessary for advancement. Because of that, you’ll often have players testing with an eye toward failure; whether it’s eschewing help, volunteering to use their lower-rated skills, or hindering themselves with Traits (sometimes all three on one roll). Do not undercut this player choice by varying the Obstacles. Set the Ob objectively, let the players decide how they want to tackle the problem, and then introduce conditions or twists in the event of failure.

[noclue]

Ice, I would tend towards setting obs per the book and then let the players create, or justify, advantages if they want them. They can always use wises to declare things that become advantages (just make sure to let them know what happens if they fail the wise test). If you hand those to them, they're less likely to bring their wises in.

xposted with Wanderer

EDIT: actually, let me say that more strongly. If the players want a mechanical advantage, ask for a roll, even if you've already established the color. So, if you say the ground is firm and they want some kind of advantage for that, still make them roll an appropriate test. Sure, the ground is generally firm here, roll scouting, if you beat the ob then that's an advantage for your side, if you do not succeed, then there is a twist or a condition.

[-Ice]

Acording to this (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7618) thread, David himself claims she's rather young. I would say at the very most 30.Hmmm... he says she's been in the position for several years, and she was young when she was raised to the position. 30 is too young, I'd say she was raised BEFORE 30, add several years, so she's at least 40 now.


Where are you seeing that you can “play with” the Obstacles? That’s not what James and I are saying. Look again at his baking bread example. Baking bread for a group of mice is everyday work, but it’s still difficult. How does the Baker accomplish this regularly? She gets hungry doing it. Same with Saxon blazing the new trail. He’s not going to fail; he’s going to succeed with a condition.Coming from D&D and other games, I guess I have to unlearn bending things (fudging dice rolls and target numbers has been "normal" for me for some time now). Excellent example to prove your point though!


Don’t try to reinforce this (or generate twists) by messing with the Obstacles. It is the nature of players and their dice to create all sorts of complications to the situations with which they are presented. Furthermore, both passed and failed tests are necessary for advancement. Because of that, you’ll often have players testing with an eye toward failure; whether it’s eschewing help, volunteering to use their lower-rated skills, or hindering themselves with Traits (sometimes all three on one roll). Do not undercut this player choice by varying the Obstacles. Set the Ob objectively, let the players decide how they want to tackle the problem, and then introduce conditions or twists in the event of failure.I totally forgot about that! Yeah, players would have to fail too. Again, coming from a system where winning is what it's all about, I'm slow in this "lose-to-win" scenario. I guess if my players do want to do a difficult thing, then they probably want to fail, so I should set things "as written."


Ice, I would tend towards setting obs per the book and then let the players create, or justify, advantages if they want them. They can always use wises to declare things that become advantages (just make sure to let them know what happens if they fail the wise test). If you hand those to them, they're less likely to bring their wises in.

xposted with Wanderer

EDIT: actually, let me say that more strongly. If the players want a mechanical advantage, ask for a roll, even if you've already established the color. So, if you say the ground is firm and they want some kind of advantage for that, still make them roll an appropriate test. Sure, the ground is generally firm here, roll scouting, if you beat the ob then that's an advantage for your side, if you do not succeed, then there is a twist or a condition.Point taken, and thanks to your (and Wanderer's) examples, I now see more clearly why I would NOT want to mess with the Ob numbers.