Lei Bao Zhong v. Arakis commentary

[Yagathai]

I know for whom I'm voting.

[Drozdal]

I always liked spiders

[Thor]

Yay Spiders! :P

[Kublai]

Lei Bao Zhong is INVINCIBLE!!!

[Verrain]

Trying to jinx him, Kublai? ;)

Last I heard a line like that was a Bond film right before the liquid nitrogen tanks flash froze the guy.

[Kublai]

Haha! That's who I was thinking of, too!

[Yagathai]

Hmmm. A dead heat, so far.

[Verrain]

So it would seem. Nice to know we each have a following. :)

[Yagathai]

You could say that since Lei has more wins than Arakis, but the polling is even, Arakis is a bit ahead.

This displeases the Celestial Proctors. There will be a heavenly reckoning. :evil:

[Kevin]

Arakis is ahead now. That will probably displease them even more.

[Yagathai]

Look, just because he's got twice as many limbs and four times as man eyes as my champion is no reason to discount the awesome power of the opposable digits.

[Verrain]

I broke down the upcoming fight to my wife this way:

Ok so he's got a spear and I can strike like a spear, so there's no real reach advantage. So it comes down to this: he's got Kung-Fu Action Grip and I've got Amazing Web Action. Its a toss up really.

:D

[Yagathai]

Yep. This one's pretty even. Arakis does have the webbing and the faster movement rates, but Lei hits harder and has more options with the martial arts stuff.

[Kublai]

Am I judging this one? :oops:

[Thor]

Am I judging this one? :oops:

I sure hope so! I've already taken on Virgil the Vicious versus He Who Sits Astride the Howling Black Beast.

[Yagathai]

I had asked you last week. You had said yes.

But that was several days ago.

[Kublai]

Ha! No problem. I am ready.

FYI, I only can do this from work as I have no appreciable internet service at home. Yesterday was a holiday, too, so I just got back into work now.

[Yagathai]

Me too, actually.

[Thor]

Ha! No problem. I am ready.

FYI, I only can do this from work as I have no appreciable internet service at home. Yesterday was a holiday, too, so I just got back into work now.

Ha! Maybe it's time you dragged yourself out of the stone age and got a computer. ;)

[Yagathai]

Are we waiting on Verrain, or are you just busy at work, Kublai?

[Kublai]

I will write an intro by the end of day. It's a bit busy here.

[Yagathai]

No sweat. I just wanted to make sure that we didn't have our wires crossed somewhere. :D

[Yagathai]

It begins?

You hear that, Verrain? The people are cheering for me. Not you. Me. :twisted:

[Verrain]

Home court advantage will not save you, little snack.

[Yagathai]

No. My superior skill and faith in the Will of the Celestial Emperor will save me.

Home court advantage is just gravy.

[foxandwarlock]

Why did the Spider get penalized with the +4 Ob for Lei's sprinting? I thought only the sprinter got the +4 and the attacker got a penalty equal to the sprinter's Speed / 2? Unless Lei has a Speed of 8.

[Thor]

Why did the Spider get penalized with the +4 Ob for Lei's sprinting? I thought only the sprinter got the +4 and the attacker got a penalty equal to the sprinter's Speed / 2? Unless Lei has a Speed of 8.

A lariat is a ranged weapon. If your opponent is Sprinting and you try to use a ranged weapon upon them, you get an Obstacle equal to the opponent's Speed attribute.

[Yagathai]

My strategy was successful!

[Verrain]

This time. :)

[luke]

This time. :)

Dude, plant feet and throw! Don't be all movin when you're throwin! 'Specially since Yag is doing the ol "sprint diagonally". I sure hope Kublai is doing the geometry to see how far apart you two really are.

:roll:

[Yagathai]

It's clear that the spider fears my heavenly fury.

[Verrain]

This time. :)

Dude, plant feet and throw! Don't be all movin when you're throwin! 'Specially since Yag is doing the ol "sprint diagonally". I sure hope Kublai is doing the geometry to see how far apart you two really are.

:roll:

A learning experience. I somehow had not internalized the the movement penalties differed for ranged and melee combat. I shall not make that mistake again.

[Thor]

This time. :)

Dude, plant feet and throw! Don't be all movin when you're throwin! 'Specially since Yag is doing the ol "sprint diagonally". I sure hope Kublai is doing the geometry to see how far apart you two really are.

:roll:

Don't worry, the Geometry has been calculated and double-checked. :twisted:

Thank god I paid the 2 skill points for Geometry Training.

[eruditus]

This is definately somewhere that needs the new spatial movement rules. Paces have no place in such a setting, i think.

I'll have to look about the forum and see how they are coming along.

Spacing can be a real issue without a good GM.

[jc_madden]

You think that's bad, you should see the headache of 3D positioning in a Zero-G environment.... sheesh.

[Thor]

You think that's bad, you should see the headache of 3D positioning in a Zero-G environment.... sheesh.

Don't even bother. Just use the new Positioning Rules. Add in a Zero-G Combat Training. Those who don't have it are at +4 Ob to positioning. Those that do are at no additional penalty. For extra fun, anyone with Geometry Training gets to add an additional +1D to their Positioning tests.

[Kublai]

I sure hope Kublai is doing the geometry to see how far apart you two really are.

Holy crap, I hate math! Seeing as how I haven't taken a math course since high school (of which I got a "C"), I am guestimating as best as possible. Anyone who comes back to me complaining will get a Steel test +10 on their next action. It's a combat, not everything happens in straight lines.

::does robot dance::

[jc_madden]

Don't even bother. Just use the new Positioning Rules. Add in a Zero-G Combat Training. Those who don't have it are at +4 Ob to positioning. Those that do are at no additional penalty. For extra fun, anyone with Geometry Training gets to add an additional +1D to their Positioning tests.

Wow you're meaner than me. In my BW Sci-fi rules Zero G imposes a +2ob penalty, those with Zero G training reduce it by one. Those with Gravity adaptation reduce it by one as well and the two stack.

[Yagathai]

Back to the matter at hand:

Chitinous vermin must die!

[eruditus]

...and the two stack.
Ah spoken like a true d20 player LOL :lol:

[jc_madden]

I only meant to be clear. Some bonuses might overlap thereby not offering their full benefit. I wanted to show in no uncertain terms that you could use both.

[jc_madden]

We now interrupt this OT discussion to bring you back to the action that is happening LIVE! Man that was exciting! <chitters like a roden on crack>

[Verrain]

Tsk, tsk. He should know better than to repeat a pattern like that. Shame the dice weren't with me. It could have been over right there.

[jc_madden]

Personally I had assumed that since you had to forfeit a V3 action to move backwards in V2 that your V3 move wasn't going to change from your forward movement. As my father once pointed out whilst we played chess; sometimes an observer standing over the table sees something he considers obvious that the two players sitting close to the board do not. Forrest through the trees and all that I suppose.

[Yagathai]

Artha and armor allows one to take larger risks than one might otherwise consider.

This next volley should be very interesting.

[Verrain]

Especially since I too have artha and armor. :)

[LordSmerf]

But, but, but... WHY?!? Where's the Lock? The Lock!

[eruditus]

Damn this is a good fight.

I love the line "Arakis is on the Inside from 2 paces away*! "

Damn they are creepy on so many levels. That boy is so spider food.

[Kublai]

I was shocked when Zhong went for the Charge and not his death-dealing Flying Kick!

[Yagathai]

Trying to lock me when I'm sprinting is a losing proposition.

Don't worry. The pain is coming, I'm sure. 2 successes on seven dice make Lei Bao Zhong a sad holy warrior. =(

[LordSmerf]

Why would Locking a sprinter be a problem? Wouldn't the He's Coming Right For Us rule still apply? That would be your ND + 1 + 1 for his Dash... And I'm sure he has some sort of ridiculous Agility...

Thomas

[Kublai]

That Coming Rule is only for shooting.

[eruditus]

I only meant to be clear. Some bonuses might overlap thereby not offering their full benefit. I wanted to show in no uncertain terms that you could use both.

i'm with you man! :) i was just joking. I was a d20 addict for quite a awhile and so hearing the lingo makes me shudder :D

okay, back to the spider feeding.

[LordSmerf]

Oh, well... in that case... :)

Thomas

[Yagathai]

I just didn't want to be monothematic, you know? I could just flying kick up one side of him and down the other, but I wanted to try a tackle instead.

[luke]

That Coming Rule is only for shooting.

There are MELEE penalties for sprinting, separate for shooting. To hit the sprinter: Melee penalty is half speed exponent. Missile penalty is full speed exponent.

and I wouldn't have let the Spider Bite without at least allowing Zhong to be on the Inside. The spider got in with his forelegs, he could have held zhong out there if he wanted to, but he chose to bite so he brought him in.

What's up with the LUNGE penalty for Charge?

and I don't know about sprinting moves on the Inside. So whacky.

-L

[jc_madden]

i'm with you man! :) i was just joking. I was a d20 addict for quite a awhile and so hearing the lingo makes me shudder :D


I'm a complete geek, I like D20, Gurps, BW, and many more. I still play DnD every Saturday.

[Verrain]

That Coming Rule is only for shooting.

There are MELEE penalties for sprinting, separate for shooting. To hit the sprinter: Melee penalty is half speed exponent. Missile penalty is full speed exponent.

and I wouldn't have let the Spider Bite without at least allowing Zhong to be on the Inside. The spider got in with his forelegs, he could have held zhong out there if he wanted to, but he chose to bite so he brought him in.


Or to hold him where he was and take a lunge penalty on the bite perhaps? As it is, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to draw him in, bite him, and push him back out again.



What's up with the LUNGE penalty for Charge?

and I don't know about sprinting moves on the Inside. So whacky.

-L

Indeed, there seems to be so much moving going on that I was surprised to find myself still on the inside.

[Yagathai]

No more so than I, I assure you. ;)

[jc_madden]

Oooh hesitation... that may well prove to be a fatal error.

[LordSmerf]

Oh wow... If only you had had an Action to forfeit to rescript an Action 1 Lock, this could have all been over. Stupid armor!

Thomas

[Kublai]

What's up with the LUNGE penalty for Charge?

If the characters start at 2 paces, and both move 4 paces, then they are never closer than 2 paces, which is Lunge distance for unarmed attacks as explicitly stated in the rules.

[Verrain]

Indeed.

*Insert your own "knowing better than to punch a spider in the head" joke here.* :)

[Kublai]

and I wouldn't have let the Spider Bite without at least allowing Zhong to be on the Inside. The spider got in with his forelegs, he could have held zhong out there if he wanted to, but he chose to bite so he brought him in.

Oh, there's a whole lot to this call of mine than what you could possibly imagine. To begin with, I think Verrain forgot about his elongated legs and their extended reach. So when he first moved to get Inside, I made a judgement call. Would he want to get inside at 2 paces or 1? I chose 2 for him without asking as it made a lot of tactical sense.

Then, when he went to bite, I didn't know what to do. If I gave him the +1 Lunge, Verrain might have said he had always wanted to be at 1 pace inside. Then I would've been in trouble.

I didn't even bother to figure it out once I realized Zhong made his armor save anyway. 8)

[jc_madden]

this fight is touch-and-go i love it! all this anticipation has got to be a crowd pleaser.

[Verrain]

and I wouldn't have let the Spider Bite without at least allowing Zhong to be on the Inside. The spider got in with his forelegs, he could have held zhong out there if he wanted to, but he chose to bite so he brought him in.

Oh, there's a whole lot to this call of mine than what you could possibly imagine. To begin with, I think Verrain forgot about his elongated legs and their extended reach. So when he first moved to get Inside, I made a judgement call. Would he want to get inside at 2 paces or 1? I chose 2 for him without asking as it made a lot of tactical sense.

Then, when he went to bite, I didn't know what to do. If I gave him the +1 Lunge, Verrain might have said he had always wanted to be at 1 pace inside. Then I would've been in trouble.

I didn't even bother to figure it out once I realized Zhong made his armor save anyway. 8)

*chuckle* Well you were absolutely right on the get inside at two paces call. As for the bite, I had scripted a walking forward and assumed that would get me close enough for the bite. I would have accepted the +1 lunge penalty for not closing the gap. These are the kinds of details only real combat teases out eh?

[Yagathai]

Nitpick: Spiders don't have heads. They have cephalothoraxes.

[eruditus]

Nitpick: Spiders don't have heads. They have cephalothoraxes.
yeah, but somehow *Insert your own "knowing better than to punch a spider in the caphalothorax" joke here* wouldn't have been quite as funny. Or would it have?

[Kublai]

WOOHOOO!!!

What a fight! :D

[Yagathai]

Wha? But... then he falls over, and lets go, and I'm fine, and then I finish him, no?

At least, that's what happens in my head.

[jc_madden]

I imagine you both passed out and the fight was declared a draw and you both get carted off before you come to. I vote that Arakis get an extra point of steel for recovering from that kind of wound what say you?

[luke]

Wha? But... then he falls over, and lets go, and I'm fine, and then I finish him, no?

At least, that's what happens in my head.

You imagine that happening as you lay on the ground, securely nestled in your bed of webbing.

BTW, a spider doesn't have a HEAD, therefore no called shots to the HEAD are possible. In order for such called shots to be possible, one would have to have a head. As we know, spiders do not have heads. A punch to the cephalothorax, you say? Otherwise known as the "chest which contains the brain."


tho·rax **thÙrks, thr-)
n. pl. tho·rax·es or tho·ra·ces (thÙr-sz, thr-)
The part of the human body between the neck and the diaphragm, partially encased by the ribs and containing the heart and lungs; the chest.

In Burning Wheel, the chest is the most heavily armored location. The character is granted a a bonus armor die when struck there.

Plated Leather grants 3D. Therefore a plated leather breastplate would grant 4D.

I'm not saying anything, except that the spider doesn't have a head. His brains are in his chest. Which is the most heavily armored part of his body.

-L

[Kublai]

GENTLEMEN! BEHOLD!

Page 179 of the Monster Burner under the heading "Wrapping":

Locks do not need to be maintained by the spider. They can let go and the lock remains. This is because the spider uses its silk to wrap you.

Since Zhong was completely incapacitated, he couldn't cut nor break free without outside assistance.

[Kublai]

Despite Luke's ranting, the fight stands as is.

[Verrain]

Oh that is beautiful!

That was great fun!

[Yagathai]

Abzu: I dated an arachnologist for four years. I know my spider anatomy.

I was thinking that the abdomen was the most heavily-armored part, as it's (generally, depending on species) the largest and bulkiest target and most analogous to a spider's torso. Granted, in real spiders the cephalothorax does tend to be more armored than the abdomen -- but it seems simplest to keep the default target the most heavily armored area.

Unless you want to make the head, where the eyes and neural ganglia live, the default place to hit a spider. Which is fine with me.

[luke]

Abzu: I dated an arachnologist for four years. I know my spider anatomy.

I was thinking that the abdomen was the most heavily-armored part, as it's (generally, depending on species) the largest and bulkiest target and most analogous to a spider's torso. Granted, in real spiders the cephalothorax does tend to be more armored than the abdomen -- but it seems simplest to keep the default target the most heavily armored area.

Unless you want to make the head, where the eyes and neural ganglia live, the default place to hit a spider. Which is fine with me.

Every spider text i read referred to the thorax as the most heavily armored area. The only spiders that had any protection on their abdomen were rugose species or certain varieties of chitinous cave spides. I doesn't make sense for the abdomen to heavily armored anyway. A spider attacks with its front half. The cephalothorax is the part that takes all the hits from its prey, not the abdomen.

-L

[foxandwarlock]

Everything I ever learned, I learned from role-playing.

Spider anatomy. Check.

[Yagathai]

I should clarify: As I said in my post, in real life the cephalothorax is usually the most rugged part, but in game terms I thought the cephalothorax more analogous to the head than the abdomen is, and therefore it'd have one die less of armor. I could just as easily have gone for the legs -- unless we count the pedipalps as a seperate hit location?

Hmmm. Perhaps you should include this information in the Revision.

[Thor]

I should clarify: As I said in my post, in real life the cephalothorax is usually the most rugged part, but in game terms I thought the cephalothorax more analogous to the head than the abdomen is, and therefore it'd have one die less of armor. I could just as easily have gone for the legs -- unless we count the pedipalps as a seperate hit location?

Hmmm. Perhaps you should include this information in the Revision.

I think the idea is that spiders don't have a head location at all. The cephalothorax IS the chest area for spiders.

[Yagathai]

Then what does the abdomen count as?

[Verrain]

Hey Yag!

Up for a rematch with the Revised Rules?

I'd love to see how positioning tests would change things.

[Yagathai]

I'd like to say yes, but check back with me again on Monday.

[Kublai]

I think the idea is that spiders don't have a head location at all. The cephalothorax IS the chest area for spiders.

My problem lay in the fact that I am ignorant of spider anatomy and thus try to fit a spider's body into human terms. Thus the place with the eyes and mouth was its head and thus less armored.

All has been clarified now, however, in the rules. Spiders get thicker armor on their cephalothoraxes. Verrain, mark this and remember it.

[Thor]

My problem lay in the fact that I am ignorant of spider anatomy and thus try to fit a spider's body into human terms. Thus the place with the eyes and mouth was its head and thus less armored.

All has been clarified now, however, in the rules. Spiders get thicker armor on their cephalothoraxes. Verrain, mark this and remember it.

I hear you. I probably would have made the same mistake.

[Verrain]

I'd like to say yes, but check back with me again on Monday.

Any time and place is fine with me. I will wait for this match.


Spiders get thicker armor on their cephalothoraxes. Verrain, mark this and remember it.

So noted and marked.

[luke]

the monbu Arachnid Body trait even says, abdomen and thorax and legs (and describes the head as being in the thorax).

But Yag's correct, he could have called the shot to any area on the inside.

As for the abdomen dice allocation, the ararchnologist in me says it doesn't benefit from the chest bonus (because it's soft and gobby), but Verrain very well could have made a case for it counting as extra-armored.


As for revision clarifications... I don't think this is going to make it in.
:roll: