Prince Arzuné Vs Prince Manaur El'Ethuil(commentary)

[jc_madden]

Let's get ready to ruuuuuuuumble!

[Kevin]

So we're on, eh? Who's going to referee?

[jc_madden]

I was waiting for one to come on so that I could PM him.

[Yagathai]

*ahem*

[jc_madden]

PMing you my character now Yag (sorry).

[Kevin]

Mine will be along tonight after I get home.

[jc_madden]

Oh the agony of waiting. I guess we cant all be like me sitting at a desk hitting refresh every 5 minutes.

[Kevin]

Well, I sent my character off so I expect the fun will begin today. I hope the Elven Prince will welcome the sweet surcease of death...

[Verrain]

Just remember the old saying: when two elves fight its the orcs that win.

:D

[Yagathai]

Sure, but it ain't two elves fighting here.

[Kevin]

It's an elf vs. a Lost Atlantean, to be precise.

[Yagathai]

So how'd I do? Was that lurid and 1930's pulp enough?

[LordSmerf]

"Like a bloated corpse" was an excellent choice of phrase.

Thomas

[Kevin]

It definitely set the right tone.

[Yagathai]

I just figured, if we're going to have a Lost Atlantean, I might as well give it my best try at pulp-style dramatics.

[Kevin]

Hah! Missed.

[Kublai]

Put some oomph into that throw, boy!

[jc_madden]

I'm still learning, I didn't realize that A) second action means end of move range and B) that he was going to back up too.

[jc_madden]

Sorry for my absense our T1 at work went TU!

[Yagathai]

We should have everything sorted out and be good to continue (at a quicker pace) by tomorrow morning.

[luke]

Ok, I try not to take sides in these, but I'm totally rooting for the underdog Lost Atlantean!

Kevin, I hope you squeezed every cheating point you could out of those four lifepaths. You really don't get much! (Lost Atlanteans are meant to be six or eight LP characters...)

good luck, scion of a dead realm!
-L

PS Sorry JC! :oops:

[luke]

and just to be explicit about certain rules: SPEECH DOES NOT COUNT AS ACTIONS. Songs and prayers may be uttered as you act.

Let's hope you survive the exchange to learn your lesson, elf boy.

[Yagathai]

nb. I've had to make a small change to the last posted volley -- my pace calculation was wrong by one. The third volley starts at 10 paces apart, not 11.

- Mike V.

[Kevin]

So that's it? One girly javelin throw and then the elf-boy's afraid to get into combat? Wuss.

If you think one little elf-song will save you from the taste of cold steel you are very much mistaken.

As for the Lost Atlantean lifepaths--yeah, I know. One or two more would have allowed for some serious twinkery in terms of skills, traits and most of all equipment. You get some decent payoffs in terms of stat points in the early lifepaths, though.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Awesome! Can't wait to see if the Atlantean manages to stave off Wonderment in the next Volley!

[Kevin]

Can't wait to see if the Atlantean manages to stave off Wonderment in the next Volley!
I suspect that I will be able to manage...

:twisted:

[luke]

Awesome! Can't wait to see if the Atlantean manages to stave off Wonderment in the next Volley!

wonderment takes effect in exchanges equal to current Will.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Awesome! Can't wait to see if the Atlantean manages to stave off Wonderment in the next Volley!

wonderment takes effect in exchanges equal to current Will.

d'oh! I always get that one wrong.

[Yagathai]

Indeed. And the combat very well may not last that long. Then again, both contestants are fairly heavily armored. It might.

I'm curious to see what their next exchanges will be.

[jc_madden]

and just to be explicit about certain rules: SPEECH DOES NOT COUNT AS ACTIONS. Songs and prayers may be uttered as you act.

Let's hope you survive the exchange to learn your lesson, elf boy.

That is truly uber. Good to know.

[Kublai]

He's got 14 SWORD DICE????? :shock:

[jc_madden]

13 actually.

G6 Taikashido
+1D from song of sword
+2D from aggressive stance
+2D from relevant FoRKs
+2D blocking from offhand Wakizashi

[Kevin]

Indeed. I believe I may be in a spot of trouble here.

[Yagathai]

It hurts, but it hurts so good.

[Kublai]

alright. a blocking strike with a 9/5 split.

6 dice base skill.

Maybe a shield for 3 more dice on the block side.

+1 die for the song.

that would mean... ::counting on fingers:: 4 FoRK dice?

Ick.

[jc_madden]

Scroll up. Also Yag forgot I dont take a -1D penalty for dashing because I'm a Taikashido WIZARD.

[Yagathai]

I did miss that, yes. My bad. I've made the appropriate change.

[Kublai]

I didn't see any Aggressive Stance taken. I thus assume it was an Instinct? You make me proud.

[jc_madden]

I have learned well master!

[Kevin]

Indeed. At least I don;t have much chance of suffering from Hesitation.

You are a worthy opponent, elfling, even if you do throw like a girl.

[jc_madden]

One problem, my mark hit is B7 not B6 AND I believe that 6 successes is superb not mark, so I think you took B10.

[Kevin]

If that's correct this will be a very short fight. :cry:

[jc_madden]

I forgot you were sprinting, it's -2 for a mark result, B7 damage still though.

[Yagathai]

I don't believe it is. 6 successes, but the Atlantean was sprinting, which is a +2 Ob (based on his Speed). 4 successes on an Add 2 weapon is a Mark hit.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I forgot you were sprinting, it's -2 for a mark result, B7 damage still though.

Hold on there, Tex! YOU may not take a penalty for your own movement thanks to Takashido, but your Ob is still increased by your Opponent's movement. In this case, your opponent was Sprinting, which increases your Ob by 1/2 his Speed.

[jc_madden]

Right which was factored in the -2 as stated in the Fight thread, I pointed out that I missed that.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Right which was factored in the -2 as stated in the Fight thread, I pointed out that I missed that.

Sorry. I think we cross-posted. 8)

[jc_madden]

He he yep. Man has this been a great learning experience.

[Thor Olavsrud]

He he yep. Man has this been a great learning experience.

Heh! Well, thankfully for Kevin, you didn't think to take an Elven Cloak with all those RPs you scored. Then this would be truly ugly.

And Kevin, don't feel bad if this doesn't go your way. As Luke pointed out, the Atlanteans really don't come into their own until they have a few more than 4 lifepaths under their belts.

Meanwhile, Elves are by far the twinkiest characters in the game. I'm surprised that Kublai was all concerned about trolls when elves were fair game. :lol:

[jc_madden]

Shhhh. :roll: Seriously though, doesn't the grey mantle just give you lots of Camo? What fun is that in an arena battle?

[Kevin]

Oh, I won't feel too bad. I figured this was a good way to get a better handle on scripting, and it's certainly doing that.

I am, however, amazed at the level of twinkiness available to Elves. Although as I noticed when one of my players burned up a knight with plate mail and a G5 Sword skill, there's always a way to bring even the twinkiest character down.

The knight? He ran into a giant spider, failed a Steel check, and Stood and Drooled while the thing got an unbreakable lock on him.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Shhhh. :roll: Seriously though, doesn't the grey mantle just give you lots of Camo? What fun is that in an arena battle?

If you got even ONE success, your opponent would HAVE to script an Assess to even SEE you. You don't even want to know how powerful they make Elven Rangers that already have Threne of Chameleon in the new Range and Cover Rules.

As far as I'm concerned Elven Cloaks are the most uber equipment in the Elven equipment lists (except for possibly Elven Bread and Elven Mirror-Wine).

[jc_madden]

Elven Mirror-Wine).

heheheheheh i picked up some o' those!

[Yagathai]

It seems as if I'm having issues with simple literacy. I am a total ignoramus.

See revised post. The Atlantean is worse off than I thought.

[Kevin]

If you got even ONE success, your opponent would HAVE to script an Assess to even SEE you. You don't even want to know how powerful they make Elven Rangers that already have Threne of Chameleon in the new Range and Cover Rules.

Gah! Thanks for the warning--one of my regular players is an elf fan and, shall we say, prone to careful character optimization.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Elven Mirror-Wine).

heheheheheh i picked up some o' those!

When the Revision is released (with new, fully-explained rules for using the Antiphon Union to create elven items), remind me to start a thread about recipes for making all sorts of cool elven items.

Elven War Banners are incredibly potent. Swords and spears that terrify Servants of the Shadow are easily made (and very powerful). Hidden elven roads that no non-elf can find are a snap. Mirrors of Seeing, Scepters of Lordship...all possible and powerful!

[jc_madden]

Saweet! I plan on gobbling up that revision as soon as I can!

[Thor Olavsrud]

It seems as if I'm having issues with simple literacy. I am a total ignoramus.

See revised post. The Atlantean is worse off than I thought.

ack! That -2D hurts! Believe me, losing 2D off your Reflexes sucks! But your guy must have fantastic Steel/low Hesitation to do so well on a Steel test with two less dice! :shock:

[Kevin]

If I'd known he had Takashido (and if I'd read how it worked) I'd have acted differently. That'll teach me not to assume that it'll take two actions for him to Draw his Weapon.

And damn, Elves get a lot of General skill points...

[Thor Olavsrud]

And damn, Elves get a lot of General skill points...

Yeah, elves in general make out pretty well, but an Elven Prince? ::shakes fist:: :evil:

[Kevin]

But your guy must have fantastic Steel/low Hesitation...

You have no idea. :lol:

[jc_madden]

Well they start with 5, but princes get 8 more. Hey I had a LOT of spare time growing up royal.

[Yagathai]

JC: I think that you have somehow displeased the dice gods. Look at those rolls!

[Thor Olavsrud]

JC: I think that you have somehow displeased the dice gods. Look at those rolls!

Why did the Prince test his Power for Natural Defenses. Shouldn't it have been his Takashido? Also, Natural Defenses are not affected by Stances.

[jc_madden]

No Thor, I don't have that particular abilty yet.

[Kublai]

Yagathai, Natural Defences are never effected by Stance. Just saying. (pg 80)

[Yagathai]

Thor: You are incorrect on both counts.

Takashido doesn't count against Charges, only Pushes, Throws, Get Insides and Lock -- and that's only if you have the Ob. 5 maneouver.

And natural defenses are affected by stance: http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=95&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[LordSmerf]

I thought I saw somewhere that they were in fact effected by stances.

And why, oh why, didn't you Tackle?!? It would rob him of his Takashido (swords on the Inside are a bad idea) and would have put you on even footing (his movement advantage would be nulled), your Po vs. his Po... Oh well, at least while he's on the ground he gets +4 Ob and an additional +2 Ob to Takashido tests since he can't move his full Dash...

Edited: Crossposted with Yag... he's got the link!

Thomas

[luke]

Yagathai, Natural Defences are never effected by Stance. Just saying. (pg 80)

Yag is sooo much more up to date than all of you. Yo. (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=95)

and what's up with 13 dice? you're not even in stance!

-L

[Yagathai]

He is in stance, Abzu. He's got the instinct to start in stance.

[luke]

He is in stance, Abzu. He's got the instinct to start in stance.

Dude.
:oops:

Did the Lost Atlantean at least have the good sense to Meditate before the fight?
:cry:

[jc_madden]

That wasn't my doing. I would have told him to take 6 dice away but he finished the V2 action after the knockdown and I had no control.

[Kublai]

and what's up with 13 dice? you're not even in stance!

-L

Dude, we sooo covered that on page 4. Keep up or keep quiet. :evil:

[Yagathai]

What? You admitted that yourself on the fourth page of this thread!

In any case, you're right about the no stance while prone-- but you're too far away to hit anything anyway, so we can just assume that you shredded a ghost with two less dice. =P

[jc_madden]

6 Dice less like I said, I'm +4ob stiking prone PLUS +2ob for no dash w/ Taikashido (but I would just revert to my Sword skill instead but like I said I didn't get a choice).

[jc_madden]

But shouldn't I have been in range for a katana strike at 3 paces??

[Thor Olavsrud]

Yag is sooo much more up to date than all of you. Yo. (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=95)


Bah! Good thing nobody plays this stupid game. :roll:

[LordSmerf]

I think only if you were Lunging, and I'm pretty sure you can't Lunge from a prone position

Thomas

[Yagathai]

I count differently. But we can deal with it in PM if it should come up, so as not to give Kevin any undue knowledge.

[Kublai]

Chararacters fighting in Aggressive Stance are little concerned with getting out of the way of anything. They suffer a x.5 multiplier for all Natural Defenses involving Speed (Throws, Pushes, Get Inside, Charge).

They are not penalized for Natural Defenses vs Locks or if they choose to use their Power vs a Charge.

I am hesitant to include Luke's reworking of NDs being affected by stances.

I always thought NDs were completely insinctual, required no thought, and therefore they were free reactions. Luke's explanation of why aggressive stance penalizes NDs goes against this rationale.

If Aggressive stance people are not concerned with getting out of the way and are penalized, then people who are in defensive stance would see to be overly concerned and therefore should get a benefit.

And why are only certain ND penalized and not across the board? I don't see consistency here at all.

[jc_madden]

I meant from last exchange... He charged me I attacked, I was knocked prone 3 paces away so I couldn't lunge while prone? Okay cool.

[Thor Olavsrud]

And why are only certain ND penalized and not across the board? I don't see consistency here at all.

Agreed. I surmise that you did something some Sunday that ticked him off, and he used his I Designed This Fucking Game trait to cheat. But that's just me. :lol:

[Yagathai]

I think only if you were Lunging, and I'm pretty sure you can't Lunge from a prone position


That is my interpretation. You don't really have any reach. You can't put your back into it, flex your legs, extend your arms. You're flat on your back, on the ground, down.

[jc_madden]

Works for me, I'm anxious to see what happens next! (Too bad my "Dash Sideways" didn't automatically avoid his charge :()

[jc_madden]

Soooo any fans of Tokien out there figured out what Manaur El'Ethuil means??? Here's a hint: it's Sindarin.

[Kevin]

Oh man, that's a definite improvement...

[Yagathai]

Alas! It was a good try, Kevin.

And nobody has rolled any 1s on their armor yet, either.

[jc_madden]

Sweet merciful Elf God!

[LordSmerf]

Does the +4 Ob from being Prone coung against all actions (like Avoid and NDs?) or just Attacks. The book seems to indicate the latter...

Thomas

[Yagathai]

All actions -- all physical actions, anyway. How are you going to use your speed if you're flat on your back?

[LordSmerf]

I was just curious... I was trying to figure out what I'd be scripting here... And now I know... :)

Thomas

[jc_madden]

Can't avoid since you cant Dash, no penalty to Natural Defense, +1ob cover for ranged attacks within 10 paces, +2ob cover for 20 or more paces even in the open.

[Kevin]

Stupid elf armour. :evil: If that had worked the odds would now be far more even.

As for the earlier question about why I didn't Tackle--because I didn't know he had Takashido when I scripted the Exchange.

I suspect this next Exchange will be...interesting.

[LordSmerf]

No penalty to Natural Defense? So I can't Push you down, and then every time you try to get up Push you down again, with you taking a +4 Ob on your Defense? Where's the fun in that?

Thomas

[Yagathai]

I agree with Smerf. In my game, you'd absolutely get a penalty to Natural Defenses while prone. Maybe not always -- but when trying to resist a Push while getting up? Totally.

[jc_madden]

Then conversely you'd get a BONUS if your opponent scripted a PUSH but you scripted a THROW. There is a prone rolling throw which involves rolling on your back with your foot or knee in your opponent's stomach. It kind of works like a feint, you knock me down I look like I'm trying to get up you stand over me and try to push me over again and suddenly you're head over heals and falling on your head about 5 feet behind me. I know this works because I competed in Tai Kwan Do for many years and did it all the time. HOWEVER abzu already said this no-worky-in-his-game-o so your opinions about it are moot.

edit: spellchecking should be manditory for me.

[Thor Olavsrud]

jc is correct. Being prone does not affect your Natural Defenses. It's the same with Lock. As long as you have at least one die remaining after the Lock is applied. You can use your FULL power to break a Lock and defend against an attempt to increase the Lock.

The +4 Ob is to attacks only. We also play that Blocks are at +2 Ob, but that is not stated in the books.

You cannot maintain Stance if knocked prone.

[jc_madden]

You cannot maintain Stance if knocked prone.

I can also attest to that I am feeling the pain of that as we type. Now is the +2D worth using an action to script it? Don't answer I already decided, it was rhetorical.

[Kevin]

There is a prone rolling throw which involves rolling on your back with your foot or knee in your opponent's stomach. It kind of works like a feint, you knock me down I look like I'm trying to get up you stand over me and try to push me over again and suddenly you're head over heals and falling on your head about 5 feet behind me.

Yeah, I did that one in Judo.

[LordSmerf]

Yeah, I did that one in Judo.

Yeah, well they didn't teach me that in Pimp-fu.

Thomas

[Drozdal]

Stupid elf armour. :evil: If that had worked the odds would now be far more even.

As for the earlier question about why I didn't Tackle--because I didn't know he had Takashido when I scripted the Exchange.

I suspect this next Exchange will be...interesting.
Solution: Assess and then call shots to less armoured parts of his body. Also get inside and take advantage of free called shots or lock.

[Kevin]

Interesting suggestion. If only I did not have 2 actions to his 6...

[jc_madden]

Reflexes dont go down for wounds you should still have your four or five actions (i can't remember how many).

[Thor Olavsrud]

Reflexes dont go down for wounds you should still have your four or five actions (i can't remember how many).

Actually, Wounds DO affect Reflexes. It's Locks that don't affect Reflexes.

[jc_madden]

OH. Well that sucks. ALOT.

[Kevin]

Tell me about it...

[Kevin]

My experience of actual play, so far, suggests that in this situation (taking a Midi wound or worse) the best plan of action is usually to try and keep yourself alive until one of your party members can come and rescue you. That's probably realistic, but unfortunately is not an option in Arena combat.

Still, all it takes is one lucky blow and then the hunter shall become the hunted...

[jc_madden]

Too true...

[eruditus]

yeah BW lends itself to "one roll makes a difference."

Funny cause you would think that one such as I that suffers when randomness plays into the picture would not like a game that can swing wildly one direction or another. But hey, just a testament to its spiffiness, I guess.

Its the only problem with intelligent scripting, that 6 times out of ten i have found strike/strike/strike/strike is a viable option. No thought is required and unless you have ranged weaponry and a great run, chances are you will fall under the onslaught.

Although the elves 4/9 block strike doesn't hurt...sheesh.

[jc_madden]

I find that the most crucial portion of the tactical battle is in closing the distance into melee. Obviously you want to hit your oppoent before he hits you. Although one lucky blow can swing the battle in your favor or even the odds first blood usually wins.

[Kevin]

If someone tries that you can respond with Avoids or Counterstrikes. If you can effectively Counterstrike he's in trouble because he'll have no defences going.

The Counterstrike isn't as excessive as it is in TROS (where I understand it's the best manuever in the game) but it still is pretty good, especially if you're in defensive stance.

[Thor Olavsrud]

yeah BW lends itself to "one roll makes a difference."

True, but the fact that it uses a die pool rather than a single die does tend to flatten out the randomness a bit and create a true probability curve where skill really does count. That helps a lot.

Unless you're Abzu. Even probability thinks he's a d.ick.

[luke]

strike/strike/strike/strike is a viable option.

you are so toast next time we fight.

-L

[eruditus]

strike/strike/strike/strike is a viable option.

you are so toast next time we fight.

-L

Well that's not how I fight but I will tell you if i get my ass handed to me I shall be making a bruiser to prove my theory :D

i find that I tend to be a pretty good scriptor and win more often than not if the other person is putting thought into it. however, i usually fail when given to the whim of the Traitors as my opponent swings away.

[jc_madden]

Last session one of our party THREW his d20 at the wall because it was being such an abzu.

[Kevin]

Congratulations to the victor. I don't think anything I could have done would have saved me from a blow that well-aimed.

Now, off to burn a new Champion.

[jc_madden]

Thanks you. Now what kind of lewt do I get?

[Yagathai]

Heh. You two can settle that between yourselves, but I'm pretty sure that he's got nothing that you want.

[Kevin]

Sword, armor, and basic travelling gear, since I don't have 135 RPs to spend on frippery. :lol:

[Kevin]

BTW, I posted Arzuné up over in the Wheel of Life forum, now that he's not. Alive, that is.

[jc_madden]

That frippery just Pwned yer arse buddy! :evil:

[Kevin]

So you're admitting it was the gear and not the skill of the wielder? Uncommonly generous of you. :wink:

[jc_madden]

Nope that was just gravy. :P

And for the Record Manaur El'Ethuil translates from Sindarin as...

Spirit of Flame Star of Spring.

[eruditus]

Nope that was just gravy. :P

And for the Record Manaur El'Ethuil translates from Sindarin as...

Spirit of Flame Star of Spring.

i got as far as Ethuil being Spring then got distracted by work stuff.

[eruditus]

If someone tries that you can respond with Avoids or Counterstrikes. If you can effectively Counterstrike he's in trouble because he'll have no defences going.


Statistically speaking, though, your just paring down your own die pool in hopes of paring down his. And gods forbid you try to do anything fancy like get inside and you find yourself out in the open then its all about praying your armor holds.

Interestingly enough, what armor DOES offer you in BW is the ability to be flashier because it gives you a second line of defense.

Let me correct my statement with the addition that there is almost no reason why you wouldn't block-n-strike if you had a shield and shield training.

As I said, i will have to see where this takes me when the rat gets squished by the elven demigods of battle.

[Kevin]

Remember, Defensive Stance gives you extra dice for defensive manuevers, of which Counterstrike is one. If you're going to be doing that you'll want to be in the correct stance for it.

The raw number of successes your opponent gets is also important, especially given the way the combat rules have been revised. So I don't think it's useless. It guarantees you a strike which can't be Blocked or Avoided.

That, and unless your weapon is Fast, you can't Strike every action.