Duel of Wits and Beliefs

[Fuseboy]

I'm curious about the relationship between duel of wits intents and beliefs. Luke recently mentioned one way of hitting a belief is to have an NPC tell them that it's bullshit and DoW them to give it up. Given that Duel of Wits is 'argument, not mind control', what happens if the PC loses?

1. Are they forced to change their belief?

("Gee, I guess my father really is a loser and not worth finding after all.")

2. Can they keep the belief, and somehow mine the discord with what you've agreed to do for Artha?

(How do you push a 'finding my father' belief after losing a DoW where the opposing intent was to make me abandon my search, while not robbing the opponent of the victory? Go home and mope?)

[luke]

The stakes can never be "You'll change your Belief," not overtly or covertly. But you can offer a DoW objective that essentially prevents a player from pursuing that Belief. If you can't pursue a Belief, what do you do? Either kill the mother or change your Belief.

[Fuseboy]

Wow, hard core. So if your belief is in non-violence, you'd be rightly fucked! *laugh*

[luke]

In our game, I'm the nonviolent one and I keep nailing the group with compromises about refraining from violence.

:)

[Paul B]

Learning to aim for "block your Belief" stakes in DOW was one of my Big Three Realizations for making the whole thing work right. If the opponent is on board with being challenged, you can't possibly offer a better stake!

[Fuseboy]

What were the other two?!

Your phrase about the 'on board with being challenged' really resonates with me. After luke talked about the reasons he'd pick a non-violent character (borderline masochism), it occurred to me that this might be scary for some folks to have their core concept challenged in this way, particularly those wandering in from D&D (where the only overlap between character progression and story is magical loot). The D&D equivalent would be a monster that bites you and, if you fail you save, changes your character class! (Whaaat?!)

[Paul B]

#2: Reserve DOW for conflicts between the players, and allow the players to Say Yes to outcomes of conflicts between characters if they both agree a particular conflict is probably a foregone conclusion.

#3: Even if you think you're going to lose, aim for a good compromise and do as much damage as you can muster on the way to the bottom.

[Fuseboy]

Wow, #2 really surprises me. We don't whip it out all that often, but you don't use DOW even for big arguments with NPCs? (Or are you guys usually shooting at NPCs?) Do you use Fight! much?

[Paul B]

Oh! A clarification. The GM is a player!

When I say "between players" I mean the people at the table, differentiated from the fictive creations those people control. IOW I don't go to DOW every time two characters argue. In many cases, the players might agree to an outcome even if, inside the fiction, the characters are arguing their hearts out.

[Fuseboy]

Ah, I see what you mean.. that's very interesting.