Obfuscate... again?

[Berandor]

I'm not talking about the difference between obfuscate and avoid the topic, but rather we had a different hick-up last time. Obfuscate was scripted against a Point, and then this is what we rolled:

Basically, one player rolled his obfuscate and the other rolled his point, and we used that as a versus test. As the obfuscate lost, I ruled that the successes on the point did count against the disposition.

However, we were unsure whether

a) the versus test for Obfuscate was the full Point test (i.e., including help and FoRKs) or should be a simple skill test, and
b) whether the Point, after comparing, would have had to be rolled again to determine successes.

We got confused because in the Obfuscate rules, it says "Obfuscate is tested first".

[luke]

Technically, Obfuscate is not a MOS/MOF action like Block or Avoid. It's all or nothing. If you succeed, you stop your opponent's actions. If you fail, your opponent acts unaffected by you.

(Yes, I know there are other +1D/+1 Ob effects part of the Obfuscate action.)

To create this effect, you make a skill vs skill versus test. If the Obfuscate fails, the skill is rolled again with all the help and FoRKs to attack the defender.

[Berandor]

Ah, so first you just check the raw skill of the attacker (without FoRKs and stuff), and then he – maybe – gets to make a point? Cool. Thanks!

[Tzelzix]

Seems strange to me. If the player A is allowed to FoRK and get help for his obfuscate, but player B has to use raw Oratory (as an example) in this versus test, that would really shift the advantage to obfuscate.

[Thor]

Obfuscate is a powerful maneuver, but it's risky.

Firstly, if scripted against a Feint, the Feinter gets to roll his Feint twice and add up all those successes to defend against it. And failing an Obfuscate gives the opponent +1D to his next maneuver.

Secondly, if the Obfuscator's opponent defeats the Obfuscate, the opponent could deliver an Ob 0 Point or Dismiss. That's brutal!

Also, note that it's an unusual character that is able to come up with more than one or two FoRKs for an Obfuscate. You can only use Oratory for a dueling skill or a FoRK if you're giving a speech to a group of people. It's very difficult to combine Soothing Platitudes and Ugly Truth in the same bit of dialogue. You can only use Falsehood if you're attempting to lie. And Rhetoric is a very unusual skill that few characters will have.

[Odie]

When the Obfuscator gets +2D versus a Dismiss, does the Dismiss also get the +2D versus the Obfuscate, or does it get the +2D only toward making the "point" to damage Body of Argument in the event the Obfuscate fails?

-B

(Also: holy shit, we've been doing this wrong for years. Because hardly anyone Obfuscates.)

[Thor]

When the Obfuscator gets +2D versus a Dismiss, does the Dismiss also get the +2D versus the Obfuscate, or does it get the +2D only toward making the "point" to damage Body of Argument in the event the Obfuscate fails?

Why would the Obfuscator get +2D versus a Dismiss?

Also, the Dismiss action only goes off if the Dismisser successfully defends against the Obfuscate, so he only gets the +2D on the roll to damage the Obfuscator's Body of Argument.

[zabieru]

When the Obfuscator gets +2D versus a Dismiss, does the Dismiss also get the +2D versus the Obfuscate, or does it get the +2D only toward making the "point" to damage Body of Argument in the event the Obfuscate fails?

-B

(Also: holy shit, we've been doing this wrong for years. Because hardly anyone Obfuscates.)

You're thinking BE. BW Obfuscate is different. Which are you playing?

[Tzelzix]

Also, note that it's an unusual character that is able to come up with more than one or two FoRKs for an Obfuscate. You can only use Oratory for a dueling skill or a FoRK if you're giving a speech to a group of people. It's very difficult to combine Soothing Platitudes and Ugly Truth in the same bit of dialogue. You can only use Falsehood if you're attempting to lie. And Rhetoric is a very unusual skill that few characters will have.

But it's still quite an advantage if your opponent is not allowed to FoRK at all. Just to get that straight for me. The versus test for obfuscate basically is

Obfuscate + FoRKs + Help vs. Dueling skill (no FoRKs, no help)

Is that correct?

[Odie]

You're thinking BE. BW Obfuscate is different. Which are you playing?

Both. But currently BE. Apparently I'm going to have to plop both books' Duel of Wits chapters open side-by-side and do a stare & compare.

Edit:

BW's Obfuscate 'interrupts' the opponent's non-Feint maneuver and forces a quick preliminary test between dueling skills; if the Obfuscator ties or wins, the victim loses his current action, and if not, the victim tests (again) as normal.
BE's Obfuscate tests versus the maneuver of the opponent, whatever it is (but if it's a Dismiss, it gets +2D), and if it ties or exceeds the victim's action is halted, but if not the victim's test stands with full effect.

Right?

-B