Druidic Summoning

[Verrain]

This was sparked by the Elven Forest Keeper lifepath thread in the Character Burner forum.

I had played around with the idea of druids for a while and quickly decided that Nameless summoning was the go to simulate a druid's affinity with/power over nature.

However, the main problem I ran into was the punishment/price that a nameless spirit would inflict upon the summoner if they ever crossed paths again. A druid that had to avoid large sections of his forest would not be a very effective guardian. On the other hand, there should be a price to pay for summoning the spirits of the forrest so it isn't something done lightly.

My thoughts on this was to allow a Druid to bargain with nameless spirits in the same manner a regular summoner bargains with the Named. If a Druid can convince the spirit that his request is in the best interest of Nature then it will act as requested without the Druid having to pay the price. Else the spirits of nature will demand great service, over and above his usual protection, in exchange for rousing the spirits from their rest.

So that was the base idea. All that needs to be fleshed out is the bargaining skills of nameless spirits, and the scale and type of services that spirits of nature would demand as the ones for the Named are not all appropriate.

Also I was planning on several druidic traits to make dealing with the spirits somewhat easier, say attuning yourself to one particular element for bonus with it and penalties to the opposing element, or arch-druids having more respect and so having a bonus when bargaining that sort of thing.

What do people think?

[Thor Olavsrud]

First, I want to point out that Retribution doesn't always have to be horrible. We play, and I believe the rules bear this out, that a Spirit's Retribution is usually the same as what you asked it to inflict upon others. So if you ask a Spirit of the Forest (an Earth Spirit) to hinder your foes, you in turn will be hindered by that spirit at some time if you are in the forest.

However, if you have the trees grasp and kill your foe...well, the Retribution would be unpleasant. And this is really one of the major balancing acts of Summoning. It is by far the most flexible magic in Burning Wheel, but the player of a Summoner always has to choose when and how to use that power, because it WILL come back at him at some point.

1. I think you want to be very careful about playing with this balance, because it will make Summoners extremely powerful.

2. For me at least, the very choice is what makes Summoning the coolest and most "magical" of the magic systems in Burning Wheel. Sure, every time you cast a Sorcery spell, there's a chance that you'll flub it, get a garbled transmission, and bring about the end of the world. It's happened. But with Summoning, you state up front, every time you bind a spirit, the price you are willing to pay to get what you want.

So, playing with Bargaining a la Named Summoning is an interesting idea, I think. Though you'd have to reformulate the Wheel of Offering. I doubt an Earth Spirit cares much for a Summoner's soul, for instance. On the other hand, the Druids loved human sacrifice, so hanging people or horses from trees, or burning them up in Wicker Men might make good offerings. The burned offal of White Bulls, virgins, slaves, etc. Kings might be the Pinnacle of a Wheel of Sacrifice.

On the other hand, you could go in an entirely different direction, forget about Summoning, and give Druids access to Faith in Dead Gods instead.

[Verrain]

I had considered going the route of Faith but honestly it lacked the style I was looking for. Calling upon nature should be a long involved thing and not the right prayer at the right time.

As for the retibution thing, it is simply counter intuitive to me for a Druid, who by definition has a special affinity for nature and is the sworn protector of an area of Nature, should be constantly hindered by the spirits of the land he is protecting. Unless of course, you have in your background that the druid's exist because Nature doesn't want to be bothered with these things all the time. Then Summoning works as is. But it is not the kind of Druid I am working up.

I fully recognize that unfettered Summoning is unbalancing. That's why I am trying to work out this Bargaining with Nature mechanic. As you say, and for that matter I said, figuring out the kinds of prices and sacrifices that nameless spirits would ask for is part of that balance.

So long as the bargaining skills of the spirits are high enough and the prices steep enough, I don't see why this would be any more balanced or unbalanced than Bargaining with the Named already is.

[Thor Olavsrud]

As for the retibution thing, it is simply counter intuitive to me for a Druid, who by definition has a special affinity for nature and is the sworn protector of an area of Nature, should be constantly hindered by the spirits of the land he is protecting. Unless of course, you have in your background that the druid's exist because Nature doesn't want to be bothered with these things all the time. Then Summoning works as is. But it is not the kind of Druid I am working up.

So we're basically talking D&D-type Druids here? Not the real thing (whatever that was)?

[luke]

I gotta say, I'm firmly against eliminating Retribution. You don't bargain with nature. Or in proper form: Nature doesn't bargain with YOU.

So you call her and bind her. And once you that, she's angry.

Summoning is about fear of the old ways, fear of the unknown, fear to stray off the path.

A "Druid" shouldn't be summoning the spirit to the whole forest! That's suicide! He should be calling on the spirits of the glades, boulders, paths, copses, hills, etc. By seeking out smaller domains, he can contain and control retribution: "Don't go to Hook Hill, ever, ever again." A summoner/druid should be a grim character, full of mysterious pronouncements.

Eventually, though, the price must be paid. A summoner has just got to accept that. The balance must be restored, and the spirits placated. This doesn't mean the retribution must be direct. Spirits are wiley and clever. What if the summoner's sister comes to visit him and she just wanderes off into the fen, never to be heard from again? Or the high priestess' lover mistakenly ventures down to the cursed lake and is drowned? That counts as revenge, too!

Summoning is up for a big revision, actually. Thor and I had the chance to playtest it this weekend. Callings are being removed and replaced with spiritual Circles and affiliations and reputations. This is a semi-magical manifestation of the summoner's knowledge of names and domains, and the spirit's views of his past crimes.

A nameless summoner's prime spell will simply be The Binding. One spell, to unlock all the power and fury of heaven and earth.

-L

[Kevin]

So we're basically talking D&D-type Druids here? Not the real thing (whatever that was)?
I'm not sure that he's looking for hippie New Age Druids. I think Faith in Dead Gods would actually be closer to a D&D-style druid than barganing with the Nameless.

When I read the Summoning chapter, I got the impression that the retribution thing was supposed to reflect the anger of the spirits, because they had been compelled to serve the Summoner against their will. That seems fine for shamans, but I see non-hippie druids as being able to appease and rouse the anger of nature against humanity. That sounds more like bargaining to me.

[Thor Olavsrud]

It's just the "close to nature" thing that I dispute. That's basically a D&Dism/neopagan thing.

[Verrain]

Does blood bound servant to Nature sound better Thor?

I was working for a while on a subset of the Lifepaths of Man called the Deep Green which detailed the lives of those that lived within the great forests of the world.

First there was the Woodfolk, those that had particular love or affinity for nature. These were people just making a living off the land and not desiring of neighbors. Hunters, trappers, that sort of thing.

Then there were the Rangers, the people that saw these vast forests as something to be protected and they ranged from Tazarn like natives to the guy with the yew bow and green hat.

Then there were those who pledged themselves body and soul to Nature and in return for a lifetime of service, they gained the right to rouse Nature to its own defense when needed.

That is my definition of Druid. Call it what you will, but that is the Druid I am trying to create with the Burning Wheel rules.

As for your comments abzu, you are absolutely right. There must be a price paid for summoning. But the examples you give still strike me as nonsense. If the forest keeps punishing its summoner druid and spiriting off his relatives I really don't see why the druid keeps protecting the forest. I'd quit and be a gardener somewhere inside a year. It makes a lot more sense to me for the price to be paid to actually be something beneficial to the forest. Like if the spirit of Hook Hill is roused by a druid to stop the orc mob that is slashing and burning there way up the hill, then that druid should find himself bound to that hill replanting trees instead of being ripped apart for daring to bother the spirit of the hill.

Perhaps I shall drop the idea of bargaining and instead rewrite the list of "retributions" to something I feel is more in line with the druid-nature relationship I am working toward.

And I like the sound of the spiritual circles and reputations. I look forward to seeing it someday.

[luke]

<rant>
WTF? You think a freaking druid had a choice? Sorry buddy, you're oathbound for life. You leave that forest, and I'll kill you. ::menaces sacrificial knife::

You're talking about people gifted with immense power, invested with huge responsibilty who's job it is is to deal with the uncomprehendingly potent forces of nature.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT PARLOR TRICKS AND LEGERDERMAIN! These guys DO NOT mess around. They NEVER use their power idly. NEVER. When they play, they play for keeps. Mess with a druid, and you are GONE. Disappeared. Over with. Done.
</rant>

I'd be game for some Appeasement rules, so long as they involved horrible blood sacrifices or crippling material sacrifices -- i.e. the wicker man or all of this year's harvest.

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

Does blood bound servant to Nature sound better Thor?

Sure. I think the problem is that Abzu and I have very different connotations of the word Druid than you do. We see them as Caesar described them when he fought the Gauls and they organized the backbone of the celtic resistance.

I'm talking a priest, not of nature, but of the bloodthirsty gods. A man of power who wore a mask made of human skin and swore never to commit anything to paper. If a river was flooding, he'd demand a virgin and drown her in it to appease the River god.

At planting time, he'd drench the altars in blood with his sacrificial knife to nourish the earth. When his tribe was victorious in combat, he would demand the construction of wicker men, and burn captives in them by the dozens, in praise of the sky gods.

And if the harvest failed, or blight struck the crops, or any other bad things happened, he would haul his tribe's king to the altar and spill his blood to appease his vicious deities.

When you say druid, that's what I see. He's a freaky, scary priest, and a political powerhouse in his tribe. As a holy man, he is untouchable, even by warriors from other tribes. He sends curses against his tribe's enemies and propitiates the gods so that his tribe may prosper both in war and peace.

If you see something different, that's cool. I don't think anything Abzu or I have said really applies then.

[Verrain]

Right. If I was trying to make a historically accurate druid they would have Faith in Celtic Gods and a high Intimidation and Knife skill. I don't think they would even have the Summoning skill. They were propiating their gods not summoning the forces of nature.

I still haven't heard mechanistic argument why using the bargaining rules with nameless spirits would be any more or less game balanced than sticking with a retribution mechanic. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

[luke]

well, in their concept, Nameless spirits are are supposed to be ever-present, formless entities, foreign and mysterious.

They aren't supposed to think, they aren't supposed to care about the fleeting frivolty of human desires.

So mechanically, allowing them to bargain is changing their core concept. You'd essentially have to stat them out, give them traits.

Might as well take an animist stance and give every rock, tree, bush its own inhabiting spirit/imp which can be spoken to and bargained with. You can start with Imps and the Lesser Named as a basis.

-L

[Viper]

You could also set it up so that each type of spirit has a cheif named entity that all the lesser spirits pay homage to- so when you want to part a river you call upon the river's spirit in the name of the river king, whom you have an alliance with (this could tie in to the social circle mechanics in terms of summonings). Good examples of this would be the celestial courts of chinese mythology, and, to a certain extent, the Elric novels.

[Kevin]

Something like that would also work with Named Summoning, though. If you go into Judeo-Christian demonic lore, devils are supposed to have a very rigid hierarchy, and if you have a pact with a Prince all of his underlings are also bound by it.

For the rest of it, I think the objection to bargaining with Nature spirits is a flavour thing, not a balance issue. The blanace issue is maintained as long as there is a significant price for calling on a spirit.

The Faith mechanics work best when you're talking about mighty beings who are benign in intent, so they'd work fine for a D&D druid, who is basically a cleric with a different spell list.

[eruditus]

A "Druid" shouldn't be summoning the spirit to the whole forest! That's suicide! He should be calling on the spirits of the glades, boulders, paths, copses, hills, etc. By seeking out smaller domains, he can contain and control retribution: "Don't go to Hook Hill, ever, ever again." A summoner/druid should be a grim character, full of mysterious pronouncements.

Eventually, though, the price must be paid. A summoner has just got to accept that. The balance must be restored, and the spirits placated. This doesn't mean the retribution must be direct. Spirits are wiley and clever. What if the summoner's sister comes to visit him and she just wanderes off into the fen, never to be heard from again? Or the high priestess' lover mistakenly ventures down to the cursed lake and is drowned? That counts as revenge, too!

I completely agree. Not to be directed at anyone in particular, but many gamers don't realize that adversity equals good story. i thought exactly what abzu did when Verrain said that he didn't want to have to avoid entire sections of forest.

What could be added is a system of supplications. just add a list of things that satiate the costs - like rituals, sacrifices, rededicating section of forest, destroying damns and man-made dwellings, etc. Thus the druid has to pay a price but the price may be alleviated by some other means. As long as the price is paid then all is well. but if the Druid gets bogged down and forgets or something then there will be hell to pay.

[eruditus]

Summoning is up for a big revision, actually. Thor and I had the chance to playtest it this weekend. Callings are being removed and replaced with spiritual Circles and affiliations and reputations. This is a semi-magical manifestation of the summoner's knowledge of names and domains, and the spirit's views of his past crimes.

A nameless summoner's prime spell will simply be The Binding. One spell, to unlock all the power and fury of heaven and earth.


hey could someone send this to me for review. i have a heavy summoning game coming up and i'd like to see if the newer stuff covers any of the holes I feel are in Summoning (which is already the coolest form of magic yet).

[Thor Olavsrud]

game coming up and i'd like to see if the newer stuff covers any of the holes I feel are in Summoning (which is already the coolest form of magic yet).

Unfortunately, none of it has been written yet. I doubt Luke will get to it until the Revision is finished.

[eruditus]

game coming up and i'd like to see if the newer stuff covers any of the holes I feel are in Summoning (which is already the coolest form of magic yet).

Unfortunately, none of it has been written yet. I doubt Luke will get to it until the Revision is finished.

I understand. I will just have to post what I am doing for my game which is a more politically oriented - secret mystical socieites in the mid 1800s. i just hate doing double work :)