When should a player need a relationship?

[woodenbandman]

Okay so an issue came up of a prospective player wanting to play an orc who is in love with the elf princess, but she doesn't acknowledge his existance. Should he need to purchase a relationship with her?

[Berandor]

I don't think so – but if the player doesn't pay for a relationship, then he first needs to gain access to the princess. In fact, given the situation, I might even disallow from buying such a relationship as it implies contact, and an elf princess contacting an orc might be difficult, depending on the game world – if she doesn't love him, and ignores him, why would she meet with him. On the other hand, that might be a nice fodder for story – maybe the orcs hold her brother captive, and she comes to visit under truce, and that's how the orc fell in love?

[Hired Sword]

I don't think he needs to but there's no reason he shouldn't. Depending on how powerful she is, it may be an expensive relationship, but not too expensive, as it gets the discounts of romantic love (-2), hateful (-2) and perhaps even forbidden (-1). The question, I guess, is does the group want him constantly circling her up or not?
Also, remember that you can declare that the fiction dictates that he can't see the princess now (though I would use this sparingly). It's not like he teleports into her chamber, he just doesn't have to roll to contact her.

[luke]

I would make him pay the points.

[Hired Sword]

I would make him pay the points.

Just to be clear, are you saying you would make the player buy the relationship, or that you would make the player buy without the discount?

[John Anderson]

I take it the princess isn't a player character? If not, then I'd say pay the points if the player wants the pc-npc relationship to be important to him.

If he doesn't feel the relationship is that important, or he doesn't really mind if the princess is part of the story or not, then no, don't buy the relationship.

The flip side of this is that if, during play, the princess does become an important figure for that player, he's going to have to put a lot of time and resources into building that relationship from scratch.

John

[The_Tim]

I can see it go either way. An example from the monster 7 player game I ran once.

A player burned up a noble born sea captain who left her daughter with her brother. She had a relationship with said brother, and a Belief about her daughter (which I think included some reference to her brother). However, without the direct relationship to her daughter she had to go through her brother (or other means) to get access to her daughter. Which was the point of doing it that way and the daughter was mostly a device to highlight the family conflict between the dutiful younger brother and the freewheeling older sister PC. The daughter emerged in the fiction only after the initial plot arc was resolved, as one of the girls abducted by the creepy cult (she wasn't Circled so she appeared at my discretion and the next arc had her placed somewhere else, but still without direct access from the mother).

So, if loving the princess is really about the orc PC being at odds with other more immediate elements of the story (perhaps even a captive or collaborating relative of the princess), then sure, it can just be something in the Beliefs and Traits that calls it out and doesn't have a relationship to back it up. Interaction with the princess is more about trying to get to the princess, make her aware of the character, and interacting with others in the context of this bizarre love in which the recipient of it isn't even aware that it is there.

On the other hand, buying the love, hateful, forbidden relationship means that the direct interaction between the orc and the princess is going to be in play. The love is about the orc expressing it to the princess, trying to win her over directly. And the access doesn't have to be simple. There is the whole visit by truce/dealing with orcs in general angle, or the PC knows where the princess spends her private time and hangs out there, watching and waiting. There are plenty of other ways of handling it. The relationship allows contact once play starts so long as it isn't nonsensical in the context of what is going on, but it doesn't require that the contact occurred previously in the same way, or even at all (you could have a relationship with a spy you've never met, but know how to contact and know how to establish your identity to).

[Storn]

I have to say, I find relationships to be one of the most problematic parts of character generation. I think they are a bit expensive for what you get in return. I often find it is better to build Beliefs around NPCs, those get addressed...but as one who has gone through about 5 PCs in the last year (we run short games), I know of at least three of my PCs who bought relationships... and they really did not impact the table.

(sorry for the run on sentence).

Despite my trying to include them in scenes... they just fell flat or there were more interesting avenues to pursue in the game by both GM and the players. Now, granted, our 13 Cities games evolve incredibly rapid. I've had a couple of PCs who've changed Beliefs almost on a session basis as things were resolved and evolved so fast.

While I say that relationships I've built in the past are expensive... (try being the youngest son of some 18 siblings of the god-king sorcerer of the Empire and on good terms... that is expensive!)... the Princess is pretty cheap. You can get her for 5pts (she is a minor character, and despite her social rank, she probably doesn't wield all that much power (yet)) and make it romantic (-2), Forbidden (-1)... and you are looking at 2 resource pts. Even a destitute orc can afford that.

[The_Tim]

Hm, I've not really had that trouble with relationships Storn. However it seems to me that some of it may be over purchasing them.

In the case of an extended family, or really anything that is crew like (that is, a collection of people with similar properties who move in roughly the same Circles), you definitely should take advantage of the crew set-up. An Affiliation with your family, a Reputation (you're the PC, so you should stand out!), and a relationship to the most relevant person in there. You've got a great way to Circle up family members, a Rep to live up or down to (which can crossover, "Oh, you're the rebel son of the god-king!"), and someone else to go to at any time in the family for family issues--including having them help you hunt down the right family member for a particular situation.

As for relationships in general, I see them in roughly two camps.

The first camp are very pragmatic ones. With the scarcity of stuff in character burning, you're going to need external help, and you can't always get it form the other PCs. If you're playing a radical bombs, say, but couldn't afford the bombs, you can toss in for a relationship in your radical organization and have your first meeting with them be about hooking you up with some bombs (far safer than trying to Circles up a bomb seller directly, unless you're playing Burning Hyrule). Likewise, wolf/spider mounts for orcs, where the relationship provides something clear and concrete.

The second camp are character arc ones. They're a character that has to be there for the character's arc to engage the player. If you're playing a schemer behind the thrones type guy, you need access to the king, even if you aren't going to use him for strictly pragmatic stuff, or even be hanging around him all the time necessarily, if you can't get to him without some tricky circle tests or whatever, the character isn't working as envisioned.

Obviously there are elements that cross between the two, but I've noticed that the initial impetus to pay for a relationship comes from one of those two areas. Either you want something that can't be provided via your PC or the others, or you need access to a particular character (or need to have a particular character in the story) for your PC to make sense to you.

As for impact at the table obviously pragmatic uses are the easiest to spot, especially with constant presence type ones. But, even ones there for character arc can have a huge impact. When looking for my next move, I always check my relationships first, because you can get a hold of them without a roll. If they can put you even a half-step in the right direction, it is worth going there first (it also helps with economy of characters, which is key to maintaining momentum and coherence). Need to infiltrate a convent? Well, I have a relationship with my sister, I'll go and talk her into posing as a nun and letting us in at night. Sure, I bought that relationship to show how important family was to this character despite being on the outs with them (probably for doing shit like infiltrating convents), but she can still help out.

[luke]

I have found relationships reasonably priced for their benefit. The problem with them is that the player has to use them to gain full benefit. The GM isn't obligated to activate them until a player taps them. Thus they can get lost in the shuffle. But if used properly, I find they are invaluable.

[noclue]

Okay so an issue came up of a prospective player wanting to play an orc who is in love with the elf princess, but she doesn't acknowledge his existance. Should he need to purchase a relationship with her?Does he want to be able to bring her into play without a Circles test? If yes, he needs to buy the relationship.

[beer is the mind killer]

Relationships seem damn cheap for what you get, from my B1 Burning Wheel-wise. It's like an extra Belief to throw into play ("This person is important to me because of X"), plus a reason for more face time on stage.

What's not to like?

I'd rather have a couple critical relationships than an Elven Blade or suit of Platemail any day. Lock up your GM's main antagonists with all sorts of weird player ideas! :)
(DARTH VADAR IS LIEK MY DUDE'S FATHER!... NO WAI!)

[arthurfallz]

I think it sounds like the player should pay for it. If the player wants the character to have any interaction with the princess in game, it's a Relationship. If s/he wants it to be a background element ("yeah, this Orc loves an elven princess but knows she won't give him the time of day, so he's out questing to prove he's a hero") then why waste points?

In the metagame sense, a relationship is "I want this character to enter play under these terms, and often".

[TheWhaleShark]

Why is that even a question? That's perfect Relationship fodder! And it'd be quite inexpensive too.

Pursuing that Relationship is also a fantastic way to earn Hatred tests. I'm pretty sure that even seeing an Elf princess is worth like two different Hatred tests. Feeling true love? That's gotta be an Ob 15 Hatred test right there. Being rebuked by the Elf princess with whom you've fallen in love? Ob 20, trivially. :)

Get that Orc some Blasphemous Hatred. He'll wage entire wars just for the chance to see his beloved.

So, yes, definitely make that one a Relationship.