Shades Schmades

[Kublai]

Ok, this is inspired by Little Timmy, the knight with a White Shade Sword skill. I look at him as a seasoned Burner and I go "Big deal! So he needs 2's instead of 3's or 4's. I'll still take him down with a peasant conscript."

I feel bad saying that, but it's true. I have no respect for skills with Grey or White shades. So far, they only mean a slight mechanical advantage when rolling dice. Nothing beyond that. What advantage does Timmy really have over a mundane sword fighter? Sure he always hits, but that isn't what wins a combat, as we know.

I think that's sort of sad.

Grey and White shades need some flare desperately! Something has to be there to make me blink and say, "Wow! That really is impressive!"

I really want something more from higher shades. Something worthy of Demons and Gods.

[Bill Cook]

They do have psychological punch, though. One of my players has an elf with grey Steel, and it scares the hell out of the others. That and another player's orc shaman's grey .. er .. blanking out .. Well, it's either Will or Power.

[luke]

i ain't changing no mechanics just because you're a jaded old man. If you think Timmy is such a "meh" let one of the players in your new game play a similar character.

I dare you.
-L

[Yagathai]

I've always held that characters with heroic or supernatural-shaded skills can try to do things with those skills that characters with black-shade skills can't even hope to do. A character with a white-shade sword skill, for example, could try to parry bullets or slice a 3 x 3 sheet of paper into two half-thin 3 x 3 sheets of paper. A character with white cooking could make an appetizing meal out of starlight and birdsong, or feed a host with a handful of grain. That sort of crazy stuff.

[luke]

I've always held that characters with heroic or supernatural-shaded skills can try to do things with those skills that characters with black-shade skills can't even hope to do. A character with a white-shade sword skill, for example, could try to parry bullets or slice a 3 x 3 sheet of paper into two half-thin 3 x 3 sheets of paper. A character with white cooking could make an appetizing meal out of starlight and birdsong, or feed a host with a handful of grain. That sort of crazy stuff.

set the obstacle, let the dice do the talking. Ob 6 to slice that paper in wafer thins? No problem...

-L

[Yagathai]

Sure, the ob would be high -- but at least the way that I'd run it, a character with a black sword skill would just have no chance of doing something like that, at least without spending crap-tons of Artha. It's my way of resolving the objection that Kublai stated earlier.

[foxandwarlock]

I'm torn on this one.

I mean, I read Yag's post and was like "right on." but then I started to think about it. About how much I'd given up (char gen) or worked (artha) to get to Gray or White...and that entitles me to a chance to do something? And sure, the odds are weighted with the DN being lowered but I could fail just like my Black Shaded counterpart?

Its one of the reasons I like the Gray and White descriptions for Stats in the back - because it gives the character a definable, concrete effect that embodies their Gray/White stat. Sure, I mean when you have a Difficulty of 2 for your Speed Tests, that's pretty cool but a bad roll can still happen. On the other hand, the fact that my running multipliers are way higher - regardless of dice rolls, its something that sets my "supernatural" stat apart.

Unless Yagathai is saying he just lets the White/Gray players have those moments as payoff for earning the Shade (i.e. no dice rolling). Then that's equatable to the Stat effects listed in the Burner.

[Yagathai]

There's always a chance of failure. There has to be. Otherwise... what's the point?

[Kublai]

set the obstacle, let the dice do the talking. Ob 6 to slice that paper in wafer thins? No problem...

I dunno about this example. If some God has a White 4 sword skill, he won't be able to pull this off. Anyway, slicing paper into ribbon-thin slices is pretty much a mundane effect.

I guess what I am looking for are more heroic and god-like effects to go with the dice mechanic. I feel there has to be something more to higher shades than a simple minus one from your DN. There has to be a line that only higher shades can cross.

Maybe it'd help if abzu would give me a sample of Grey- and White-shaded characters from legend?

[Yagathai]

Not ribbon-thin slices. I'm talking about cutting paper in half along the narrow end. So that a thin piece of paper is now twice as thin. That's not mundane.

[foxandwarlock]

Yeah, what Kublai said. :D

I did not articulate well enough. I agree in that there should always be a chance of failure but there should be some tangible benefit to the exceptional shade, other then providing you with the option to do more stuff. With an W6 Sword skill and an Ob6, your chances are good but no where near invincible - one 1 and suddenly you look just as dumb as the guy with the B6 Sword skill trying to cut the paper.

There should be some passive or call-on type of thing - minor in scope. I go back to my Speed example. Regardless of how poorly I roll on my Speed DN 2 test, my multiplier is still exceptional. I guess I'm looking for that same kind of passive effect for Shaded skills.

[Fourth Horseman]

The tangible benefit to the white shade is the lower ob. That should be enough. BTW next time you have a spectacular rolefailure count the number of threes and twos mixed in with your one four. See your spectacular failure turn into a superb strike or major miracle in the alternate universe of the divine.

Yet, ye gods are . . . only human. I would be remiss if we were to tack a bunch of bells and whistles onto the white and grey shades making it all but impossible for a god to fail no matter what he scripted.

People of the mundane should be capable of the divine and divine people should be capable of failure. Most traditions, outside the judeo-christian one, allow for this.

Just take a look at the Iliad. As I recall Diomodes punk'd Ares. I would guess that Diomodes with his Grey skills and Black stats--and the berserker trait--managed to outscript Ares, who was probably a power gamer using his white shaded skills as a crutch. [BTW Ares' backstory sucks.]

With your proposed multipliers that would become impossible and that would be a shame.

[Kublai]

I am not saying Gods should never fail. Au Contraire, mon frere!

I am saying that higher shades need to be able to do things that mundanites should never be able to. Like lift huge boulders, move swifter than a horse, leap hundreds of paces, see the wind, and shtuff.

Right now, there is no mechanical backup for this, though we have played it so. For example, our PC giant with Grey Power was able to lift pumpkin-sized rocks in one hand without a thought. You can go ahead and set an Obstacle for that, but then there's no difference between a Black 8 and a Grey 6.

Shades should generate a tangible, mythic effect.

[Angaros]

The problem, as I see it, is that shades -- despite their division into mundane, heroic and supernatural -- does little to increase the potential of a stat or skill (apart from a few areas), just the chance of reaching the maximum. A character with a B6 skill can get as many successes as someone with a W6 skill, just not as often. The way gray and white shades work now they won't allow a character to do something a mundane character couldn't with a little luck. I don't see Hercules, Gandalf or Lancelot as people doing what ordinary men do, just a little more often. Only in the realm of gray/white shade damage/wound tolerances and reflexes do we see the might of heroic and supernatural characters.

[Yagathai]

Kublai: I don't disagree with you. I just think that, because they're so diverse and difficult to pin-down, skills should be handled a little bit more abstractly than stats, which is why I gave the examples that I did.

Perhaps one might subject supernatural or heroic application of skills to GM approval and/or Peer Review?

[luke]

i think you're confusing ability numbers and percentages with natural magic and traits.

Thor and Loki have gray stats and skills. They also have tons of natural magic abilities -- like Elves and Dwarves.

Stats and skills are just pools of percentages. Elves and men share those same pools and same percentages. However, traits and natural magic dictate how and when those pools can be applied. The "color" of these abilties is ultra ultra important to the game.

And Jocke, I heartily disagree with you regarding Gandalf vs my Urban Sorcerer. Gandalf is going to show him up every time with his Sorcery. Sure, I can bleed over into some of his effects, but I cannot consistently generate the awesome power that he can.

-L

[Kublai]

I, too, was thinking that Traits must play a huge factor in fleshing out higher shades.

Should higher shades grant you special shade traits?

For instance, with a Grey Sword skill comes Iajetsu? Or with Grey Power comes "Stones are Pebbles?"

[foxandwarlock]

A la White Wolf's Storyteller system where when your attribute reaches a certain numerical value, you get to pick an adjective or special circumstance related to it.

In BW terms, it would mean adding an additional Trait depending on how you consistently used your Shaded skill or attribute. It could be voted on like other Traits after the player has had their new Shade for a while. It would also be a cool way to differentiate two heros with the same Shaded item (not that this would happen frequently...or well, ever.)

[luke]

I, too, was thinking that Traits must play a huge factor in fleshing out higher shades.

Should higher shades grant you special shade traits?

For instance, with a Grey Sword skill comes Iajetsu? Or with Grey Power comes "Stones are Pebbles?"

No. Why bypass a workable mechanic already in place? EIther burn up something via the Monster Burner, or get voted for something in play.

-L

[Angaros]

Stats and skills are just pools of percentages. Elves and men share those same pools and same percentages. However, traits and natural magic dictate how and when those pools can be applied.
So stats and skills do not tell us what can be done, only how well and at what success rate something can be done. Traits and natural magic do the work in defining just what a character can do? Skills and stats more or less serve as indices for an array of abilities not neccesarily defined by the stat/skill itself? Sorry if I'm just repeating what you've said here, but I need to see if it sounds the same to you when I put it in my words...


And Jocke, I heartily disagree with you regarding Gandalf vs my Urban Sorcerer. Gandalf is going to show him up every time with his Sorcery. Sure, I can bleed over into some of his effects, but I cannot consistently generate the awesome power that he can.
I agree that Gandalf should be able to do that, but I just didn't see how given how the rules work. Unless he's got a number of neat traits. What you're basically getting at here (if I've understood what you are saying ofc) is that what really defines a character as heroic or supernatural isn't the shade of his skills and stats, it's the traits he's carrying. Shades give him an edge, but won't by themselves make anyone heroic or supernatural.

[Kublai]

So you don't feel the whole Shade thing is too dry as being just a simple die mechanic and nothing else?

[Yagathai]

(if the forum were a spaghetti western, it is at this point that you'd hear a rattlesnake's rattle and then the soft, quiet harmonica music would start playing...)

[Kublai]

Can my part be played by Charles Bronson?

[luke]

I agree that Gandalf should be able to do that, but I just didn't see how given how the rules work. Unless he's got a number of neat traits. What you're basically getting at here (if I've understood what you are saying ofc) is that what really defines a character as heroic or supernatural isn't the shade of his skills and stats, it's the traits he's carrying. Shades give him an edge, but won't by themselves make anyone heroic or supernatural.

No. I'm talking about Gandalf getting a Superb shot every time he hits. Getting 10 successes every time he casts a spell.

Compared to us. We get an Incidental hit if we're lucky. Our spells barely meet the obstacle.

Overall, Gandalf's behavior will be consistently more awesome. Ours will follow a curve of tragedy and victory.

-L

[Yagathai]

You a big Il Bruto fan, Kublai?

[Kublai]

::Resists tempation:: Stay on topic! :oops:

[Fourth Horseman]

Legal disclaimer: you must be 18 years or older, and . . . oh what the fuck just read it and if you're easily offended get bent. :twisted:

"Boo hoo, wahhhhh, I have a grey shaded skill and I still have to play the game, why can't I just tell the GM what happens while supermodels suck my cock?"

--Kublai

I think what's happening here is that the "ultraviolent" shade shift proponents are conflating two issues into one. (a) natural acuity of the gifted and (b) ability to pull off the spectacular. While both are related neither is necessary toward operation of the other.

To me, and Abzu will probably disagree so take this with a grain of salt, having a heroic stat or skill means you are tremendosuly gifted individual who is more likely to pull off heroic feets. That doesn't mean you will always do that, nor does it mean that us poor schleps in the black will be incapable of pulling off the heroic or even the divine. This is indeed reflected in die rolling where dumb luck, and a little artha (blartha) can make goats out of gods and wunderkin out of bums.

Moreover, a hero or a god has a ton of other things going into his godliness then the shade of a freakin skill or stat. Like the actual skill exponent and the traits that modify that skill. What I see the shade shift partisans asking for is a mechanic that packs all of this into the shade and basically hardcodes someone who shadeshifts from failure.

(a) Fair enough I suppose if you want to play in the fellowship of the ring campaign, but leave "the safety net" in the hands of traits which the game already provides for. You want to run around and consistently chop paper sheets in two? Then pump the points into your stat to shade shift it AND roleplay your use of your skill in such a way that makes players WANT to vote you for a special trait. Don't FORCE the rest of us at the table to indulge your megalomaniac dreams on the cheap by having a multiplier or extra trait forced on us through the shade shift. Its bad enough your stupid GM gave you enough deeds points to get the lower ob (which is nothing to sneeze at) or let you bring your 5 lifepath elven prince with thrane of the chameleon and elven armor to the table. And if you have the cajones to burn a starting character with a starting grey skill back it up with a story AND spend some trait points on a triat that will flesh out WHY that skill is that way.

The "safety net" should be something that's earned, and quite expensive. But you boys seem to want to get it on the cheap by adding multiplier and automatic traits onto a higher shade. For those of you still set on this path of game unbalancing destruction I would submit this--PAY FOR IT. You want the shade to have a multiliplier like speed does in animals? Then multiply the number of points you need to buy it by the same multiple. You want to tack a trait onto that shade shift? Then spend tha concomitant amount of trait points to get that shade. And that only goes for starting characters. If you want to pull this crap in game then multiply the artha you need to spend to shade shift as well, and make the advancement of the shade subject to a party vote too.

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[luke]

To me, and Abzu will probably disagree so take this with a grain of salt, having a heroic stat or skill means you are tremendosuly gifted individual who is more likely to pull off heroic feets. That doesn't mean you will always do that, nor does it mean that us poor schleps in the black will be incapable of pulling off the heroic or even the divine. This is indeed reflected in die rolling where dumb luck, and a little artha (blartha) can make goats out of gods and wunderkin out of bums.

actually Rich, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. It says it clearly in the rules -- you aren't "better," you just have the potential to do better more often.

Also, Rich is anticipating some of the revisions -- the accurate pricing of gray shade abilities and the removal of certain game-breaking perks, like the extra speed multiplier.

-L

[Kaare Berg]

just to add some more to the debate.

Shade and Exponent are two seperate things.

Shade is the potential to do better.
Exponent is the level of compentecy.

A competent swords man has B4. A god that has W4 is just as competent as the swordsman, its just that his divine nature ensures that he'll be plonking you on the head a bit more often than the swordsman.

It takes an exponent of 6 to be called a master! And you have to be a swordmaster to chop sheets of paper in the aformentioned way. And even then its hard. Unless you happen to be the God of Swords with W6.

Keep that in mind.

[Angaros]

Is the scale of 1-10 sufficient then to model gods and demigods? A character such as Tulkas from Middle-Earth, would a W10 be enough to describe his Power? This is a mere 2 steps above the human maximum... He will úndoubtedly outperform any mundane or even heroic character but I'm just wondering if the potential of his ability is fairly reflected with an exponent of 10? Are there no feats that he should be able to perform that carry an Ob greater than 10? If not, isn't the scale too compressed at the high end then if there are tasks just 2 steps below what is barely in reach of Tulkas that a human can perform? I'm not at all interested in comparing a human to a god, I'm more interested in comparing humans and gods versus the same "objective" scale (that of Ob:s).

[Kaare Berg]

I'm more interested in comparing humans and gods versus the same "objective" scale (that of Ob:s).

Unless you plan to have the two conflict or fight side by side, why?

I'll assume you have the MonBU. Read the Exponent and Shade chapters.
Use the Let it Ride Rule and traits.

Obstacle ten is officially defined as miraculous. That's pretty all-encompassing. Nine is Phenonmonally difficult and Eight is Nearly Impossible.

Heck even with W10 ability/skill the law of avrages makes that a few though rolls without artha. But roll them bones.

[Angaros]

Unless you plan to have the two conflict or fight side by side, why?
Because I'd like to see both of them making sense without reference to each other. A W10 stat ought to make sense on it's own (within the sphere of the rules ofc).


Obstacle ten is officially defined as miraculous. That's pretty all-encompassing. Nine is Phenonmonally difficult and Eight is Nearly Impossible.Yes. But a mundane human at his peak could pull off an Ob8 roll without artha. It doesn't matter if he only does it 0.4% of the time, the important part is that he can do it. What I'm saying is that the scale maxes out at 10, while 8 is the maximum a human can achieve. That leaves only 2 steps between "human max" and "godly max". What I'm trying to say that those 2 points, those 20% of the scale has to account for a heck of a lot more than what there's room for. I am here assuming that the scale is linear or at least close to linear. But even if it's quadratic, it still doesn't leave that much space at the end of the scale. The bulging biceps of Tulkas ought to be able to lift something carrying an Ob far, far, far beyond what Beorn could do at his best. What I'm not sure about (my feeble mind is trying to decide but collapses under the weight of all that redundant fat) is whether or not those 2 steps of Ob (9 and 10) can account for that whole difference.

[luke]

Is the scale of 1-10 sufficient then to model gods and demigods?

you're right.
::crumples up revision::
::burns it::
::plays GURPS::

[foxandwarlock]

Hehe. Just for the record, it appears that my example of Speed and its passive bonuses was ill-conceived. I was not aruging that other Shaded things should have a multiplier - merely trying to point out an example of a passive "bonus" to the gray or white attribute.

:D

Carry on.

[Angaros]

you're right.
::crumples up revision::
::burns it::
::plays GURPS::
Well that was easy.
*looks up next game designer to dishearten and drive mad.*
*smiles evilly*

[luke]

The Burning Wheel system can't represent the strength and might of Yahweh -- god of gods-- vs Allah -- the one true god -- in a wrestling match.

Shocking, I know.

It can do a fair turn at the Norse myths, though. Or any myth where you have a god and a human interacting. The Ahnold-like human takes a swing. The god says, "that's pretty good!" and prompty rips his arm off and swallows it in one bite.

As Mr 4th Horsman pointed out, the margin between the top and the bottom is deliberately narrow. I'm just not interested in unattainable heights. Why write a system where there is absolutely no contest? I'd rather that there's at least a chance. Especially if I'm the one who's going to be falling prone and begging for mercy as the result of my poor judgement.

Also, as Kaare points out, if you're going to start appraising the system in broad terms, you should really be using 4s as examplar of humans, not 8s. While it's possible for those stats to be attained by characters burned up in the CB, they are rare and unlikely. 4, 5, and 6 are far more common and make a better example. A divinity, on the other hand, can have whatever stats please you.

But even comparing Ahnold with a Power of B8 vs Magni with a Power of W10... Ahnold gets four or five successes on average. Magni gets 9 or 10 successes (as long as I'm not rolling) on average. That's a HUGE margin in this game.

-L

[Angaros]

I fully admit being colored by inquries in other fields where "average" situations are uninteresting because most theories can account for them. The exciting things happen when a theory is tested under extreme pressure -- at the end of what is possible, beyond what is probable. The result of using such a method on a RPG system evidently only shows if the system "breaks" (or whatever one wishes to call it) within the scope of what is interesting, or whether the breaking point is beyond what the system was built for. Perhaps I should have seen that before I started writing but it seems I got carried away. :oops:

[Thor]

Magni gets 9 or 10 successes

That's my boy! Plus, I bet he got a Deeds point for surviving Ragnarok.

Ah yes. Artha. Let's look at this carefully.

At B8 Power, Ahnold's top "near-guaranteed success" (meaning better than 9 in 10 odds) is Ob 2. Yeah, he has a 2 in 3 chance of hitting Ob 4, but we'll stick to those better than 9 in 10 odds.

At W10 Power, Magni's top "near-guaranteed success" is Ob 6, and he will pass an Ob 8 test 3 out of 4 times! With a B8 Power, Ahnold's chances of passing a B8 test without Artha is about 1 in 20. You can pretty much forget about it (unless I'm rolling). :P

If each of them has a Deeds point to spare on the Power test, Magni's already unimaginable strength outstrips Ahnold's even more. Ahnold's B16 looks positively paltry next to Magni's W20, and even Fate points aren't likely to bring him even close.

[luke]

The result of using such a method on a RPG system evidently only shows if the system "breaks" (or whatever one wishes to call it) within the scope of what is interesting, or whether the breaking point is beyond what the system was built for. Perhaps I should have seen that before I started writing but it seems I got carried away. :oops:

As you can see, I think Thor addresses your point about stretching the system to its breaking point quite nicely.

He is Magni's dad, though. So take his responses with a grain of salt. (You don't have any giant blood in you, do you?)
-L
:roll:

[Angaros]

(Couldn't resist a response so I'll grant all of you one herring-slaps in my face as a fine ;))


As you can see, I think Thor addresses your point about stretching the system to its breaking point quite nicely.
Not really since Thor is still talking about statistical probablilities, instead of difference in potential. I never challenged that statistically Magni would outperform Ahnold every time with a sizeable margin. It was the fact that Magni's potential (scoring 10 successes) lies so few steps beyond Ahnolds (scoring 8 successes) that I've been ranting about. I need to stop now. *slaps himself with a herring* ooooh... yeah... mmm.... much better... 8) Oh, and btw Thor, you forgot a zero. Ahnold scores 8 successes with his B8 once in 200 attempts, not 1 in 20. :twisted:


(You don't have any giant blood in you, do you?)
No, only diluted dwarf blood...

[Thor]

Not really since Thor is still talking about statistical probablilities, instead of difference in potential. I never challenged that statistically Magni would outperform Ahnold every time with a sizeable margin. It was the fact that Magni's potential (scoring 10 successes) lies so few steps beyond Ahnolds (scoring 8 successes) that I've been ranting about. .

I think I see where the problem is. Obstacles do not progress linearly. An Ob 10 test is MUCH more difficult than an Ob 8 test. An example might help (I'll use some new Resources Obs):

To buy a printing press, forge, or small cargo ship is an Ob 8 Resources test. That's a lot of dough. Paying for Versailles is an Ob 10 Resources test.

With a B8, Ahnold has a fair chance of heaving a wagon out of some mud where it's gotten stuck, by himself. With a W10, Magni can pick that Wagon up over his head, and throw it across a river at someone.

[Angaros]

That's a solution that I like. Thanks. :)

[Kublai]

I think my point was missed. I was just looking for something beyond the numbers to differentiate higher shades. I wasn't looking for automatic successes and never-failures. I don't know where those accusations came from. I formally apologize for sending some of you into fits of rage. Bye.

[luke]

I think my point was missed. I was just looking for something beyond the numbers to differentiate higher shades. I wasn't looking for automatic successes and never-failures. I don't know where those accusations came from. I formally apologize for sending some of you into fits of rage. Bye.

You're looking for additional perks to an already extremely powerful ability. I'm saying that you're conflating traits, natural magic and shades.

As Thor pointed out, the "percentage chance of success" combined with the steps of the obstacle system create plenty of differentiation. And I'm saying that traits and natural magic add on extra-normal effects (that can be of any shade) -- effects outside of what is posible with regular stats and skills.

-L

[Kublai]

So it's really traits that differentiate men from demons from gods, then. For without traits but a high shade, you just a very gifted mundane.

Perhaps this does work in game, since a character that's grayed out a stat or skill probably has accrued quite a lot of handy traits. But I have yet to see it happen during play.

In summation, traits make the hero, not shades.

[Thor]

So it's really traits that differentiate men from demons from gods, then. For without traits but a high shade, you just a very gifted mundane.

Of course! What makes a Querub so terrifying? Lawbreaker, Spirit Nature, Celestial Sight, Wrathful, Aura of Fear, Aura of Holiness and Spirit Unseen (plus some other traits).

Sure, it has straight gray stats and skills, but those traits are what make it impossible for an ordinary mortal to stand up to it.

[Kublai]

I guess my expectation of shades having a bigger impact comes from its stressing in the rulebook. "Black is for mundanes, Grey is for giants and demons, and White is for Dragons and Gods." I know understand that's really only 1/2 (or even 1/4) of the story.

[Fourth Horseman]

Dude-Kublai,

Why the bittirness? As if you've had your trust violated or something. There's nothing wrong with the description of shades in the book. While having a white shade may be a neccesary condition to burning up a god, it is not a sufficient condition to modelling a god. Its called elementary logic and if you missed it in the 8th grade I can probably dig up an old math text book for you. Don't go crapping the bed on us because of Luke's failure to target the prose to 4 year olds.

Grow up.

[Thor]

Yeah. Lighter shades increase the liklihood that you'll roll more successes on the dice you have. I haven't done the exact math, but I think on a 6D roll, having a Gray shade is the equivalent of rolling around 8D or 9D in terms of the successes that are likely to come up. Of course, 6 successes is still the maximum you can get unless the roll is open-ended.

The truth of the matter is that Graying a skill or stat in Character Burning is a sucker's game unless you've already maxed out that skill or stat. Assuming no caps, you'd get far more mileage out of increasing the exponent by 5 than you do by spending 5 points to lighten the shade.

And in almost every case as far as skills go, you'd probably come out with a more potent character by maxing out the skill and spending those 5 points on another skill.

[luke]

Grow up.

Rich! Back off! That was uncalled for.

I'm speaking as a moderator, here. The rants and teeth-gnashing are fine, but let's keep these outright attacks to our personal interactions and leave them off the boards.

A little decorum, please?!

thanks,
-Luke

[Kublai]

The funny thing is that Rich wouldn't dare speak to me like this in person. :cry:

[Enlil]

Two seperate points -

It seems like you could add a lot of the effects in Kublai was talking about with traits, trainings, or martial arts-type special abilities (depending on how hard you want the abilities to gain, or how rare they should be) that require a specific shade stat or skill. Like say, Run Like A Horse, which allows the current heroic running multiplyers, and needs a grey speed. Or, Herculean Strength, reducing the obstacle to lift heavy stuff, like boulders (providing they are made of paper mache, perhaps :wink: .) And so on - shouldn't break the system, but does provide more of a framework for making a Cuchulain or Endiku.

If you take out the passive bonuses for speed, forte, power, etc, then power seems even more powerful proportionally grey than it already does - unless you also take away the ability to do grey damage (at the risk of breaking the weapon), which should also remove any black armor protection.

Christian

[luke]

HI Christian,

you're on the right track.

Perhaps we could come up with a series of superheroic type traits to scratch everyone's itch for some powergaming. One for each stat?

-Luke

[eruditus]

Well this is a really long thread which I will read in its entirety but until then i will let folk know what i was working on for 6 months.

I have a set of rules revolving around gray traits. Basically there are traits that are only accessible when you reach a gray skill or two. An additional notation to the trait is prerequisites of a list of skills or skill types (I pretty much removed raw gray stats from my game... another discussion for another time... actually a long drawn out debate that has been raging for millenia).

Additionally all gray traits come with additional gray traits from a list. these denote features that come with being gray. Heroic and divine beings cannot wander about the masses and not be noticed without much work and their own magic. Heroes less so than the supernatural. White distinctive traits are multiple faces and limbs, blue skin, massive stature, voice that shatters mountains, etc. Heros get piecing gaze, auras (which I don't allow for my mundane games) bulging muscles, uncanny grace, etc.

I shall be posting my new trait system (its a bit different with similar philosophy) after I finish with the FAQ! :)

[The Enemy]

I know this isn't exactly the best place for me to start posting, but I was reading this thread and an idea hit me that made me stop lurking. Personally I don't have much of an issue with the way the stat shades have worked for me so far, but then again I can understand a desire to have a bit more for white shaded tests.

It seems to me that the mechanic of setting obstacle for a supernatural trait is not the problem so much that the issue is that someone with a "supernatural" ability or statistic might not be able to attain an Ob 5 task with a skill exponent of 5 while a B5 skill can. It seems to me that there is a ready made solution to this problem.

In all other truly supernatural uses of skill the dice are considered open ended.

I don't have a problem with Loki using his white Perception and beginner's luck to reach an Ob that an elf or human couldn't.

[eruditus]

Two seperate points -

It seems like you could add a lot of the effects in Kublai was talking about with traits, trainings, or martial arts-type special abilities (depending on how hard you want the abilities to gain, or how rare they should be) that require a specific shade stat or skill. Like say, Run Like A Horse, which allows the current heroic running multiplyers, and needs a grey speed. Or, Herculean Strength, reducing the obstacle to lift heavy stuff, like boulders (providing they are made of paper mache, perhaps :wink: .) And so on - shouldn't break the system, but does provide more of a framework for making a Cuchulain or Endiku.


I dig this idea - gray manuevers. I think that really hits on the flavor of what I would want out of a truly heroic game.


If you take out the passive bonuses for speed, forte, power, etc, then power seems even more powerful proportionally grey than it already does - unless you also take away the ability to do grey damage (at the risk of breaking the weapon), which should also remove any black armor protection.


I think the gray damage aspect of power should be a manuever with an ob. That would be cool because you could run three or so manuever trees for characters to choose from - like for power you could have a lifting manuever tree - all manuevers that have to do with lifting feats - and a damage manuever tree and maybe a charging manuever tree.

[Flaming Circle]

I suggest to simulate an extreme, hardcore mastery of a trait or skill, use open-ended rolls for each use, roll again on 6 for black, 5 or 6 for grey, and 4, 5, or 6 for white. I think that would make getting the successes necessary for really ruff-n'-tuff possible, for the most part.

I also am very down with the ideas of skills having techniques or skills which one can buy on top of the skill which give the character a minus to an Obstacle for a specific use of it. Something like Flashy Swordplay, which gives the sword-wielder -2 Ob when demonstrating his sword-skill out of combat or intimidating someone when wielding a sword.

[TickTockMan]

Those are interesting ideas. The first would lead to huge pools of successes, and quickly, too. Perhaps successes over a certain number could be translated into special effect descriptions, or turn into some kind of effect multiplier. Power levels would go through the roof, though.

I do not think the second idea is quite so drastic, and may even be adoptable in my game. I would be more likely to use it, anyway. We do not do too much powergaming, so I haven't really though about ways to make the players and their enemies more powerful. I think we are pretty comfortable with BW as is.Te skill descriptoir bonus is ot so different from traits though, and could fit BW well.

I have basically been using traits to add extra "oomph" to characters or NPC's. I think magic items serve that role well, too, since in my games they are powerful and rare.