Adjustments to Task Resolution in the Revision

[Angaros]

Is it really possible to Aim while moving? I'd say aiming requires more concentration than that. It ought to be more difficult releasing while moving (as in combat movement, not linear movement) as well. No? And shouldn't Aim reduce Obstacle instead of add dice? Am I being annoying when posting remarks such as these? If so, I'll stop. Seriously. :?

[Angaros]

Personally I think that there needs to be a fourth action - hold your Ground or some such thing. Also, the rules currently state that Close and Withdraw only get the 1D penalty where I think you should get it as well if you maintain and are forced to move because of it.

Am I reading that correctly? So if you maintain and your opponent closes and you keep the distance between you the person who closed gets a penalty but the person that had to move the same speed to maintain gets no penalty?
I agree. Only a "maintain vs maintain" ought to be at no penalty. Even in such a situation it doesn't mean both of them stand realtively still, they can be circling about looking for an opening just keeping the same distance to each other.


As far as the aim die boost goes - mechanically its better to have bonuses add dice and penalties add obstacles. lowering obstacles, although they exist, tend to do funky things to advancement and make munchkining down to zero obs too easy. Adding dice is a better way to approach bonuses. the justification is that tasks stay hard or get harder while the user gets better or help.
But adding a die is more of a bonus than reducing an Ob, and the aim bonus should only (IMHO ofc) count against range penalties but the "max reduction of ½ Per exponent" takes care of that nicely. Besides, aiming doesn't make you better, it makes circumstances less hindering. Adding dice ought to be reserved for items/circumstances/whatever that actually raises your potential. Some penalties, such as many wounds, influence of alcohol and so on, actually lowers your potential -- there are some things you just cannot do anymore and they ought to be reflected in lost dice, not raised Ob:s.

[eruditus]

But adding a die is more of a bonus than reducing an Ob, and the aim bonus should only (IMHO ofc) count against range penalties but the "max reduction of ½ Per exponent" takes care of that nicely. Besides, aiming doesn't make you better, it makes circumstances less hindering. Adding dice ought to be reserved for items/circumstances/whatever that actually raises your potential. Some penalties, such as many wounds, influence of alcohol and so on, actually lowers your potential -- there are some things you just cannot do anymore and they ought to be reflected in lost dice, not raised Ob:s.

Well on one hand I see what your saying i think it easier to say "+1D" than all that.

Also, it is far more potent to reduce an ob than to get an extra die. Alhough extra dice have their own advantages a reduced ob is tantamount to a free success, where the die still has to be rolled. Its not really a matter of justifying the mechanics to the situation, rather a set of general principles to apply - bonuses gain a die, penalties add an ob.

[Angaros]

Why would a reduced Ob be a free success? I wouldn't allow the reduction of the Ob for a test below 1 which means there's a limit to how much easier you can make things. You can add an endless amount of dice though.

I agree with a die being more potent than a reduced Ob though which begs the question why a superficial wound is +1Ob and why a light wound is -1D. I know Su wounds don't stack until you get more than three (where they convert to a lost die) but this means it's better (statistically) to get three Su wounds than just one...

[luke]

Also, it is far more potent to reduce an ob than to get an extra die. Alhough extra dice have their own advantages a reduced ob is tantamount to a free success, where the die still has to be rolled. Its not really a matter of justifying the mechanics to the situation, rather a set of general principles to apply - bonuses gain a die, penalties add an ob.

Eru's right. And the whole system has been retooled to reflect this. There is no way to reduce obstacles now. If you want to reduce the difficulty of a task, you add dice via various means. [cues mutiny]

-L

[Angaros]

I see. Has the wound penalties been modified to reflect this as well?

[luke]

I see. Has the wound penalties been modified to reflect this as well?

There are four aspects to the basic task resulotion system:

Obstacles are what they are. The set the inherent difficulty of a task.

Advantage increases the number of dice rolled: aggressive stance, aiming, artha, working carefully, etc

Disadvantage increases obstacles: Light, weather, crappy ground conditions, moving quickly, etc.

Debilitation reduces the number of dice rolled: Light through Traumatic wounds, and Taxing effect spells.

Tadah!

::does handstand::
::calls National Guard::

[Angaros]

Aha. Is the difference in "potence" between raised Ob:s and increased # of dice accounted for in the system (via examples or whatever)? As eruditus said, raising the Ob one step is far more penalizing than adding one die is rewarding. And, again, why the +1Ob on Su wounds when -1D is less nasty (warrants a Steel test I know but still...)?

[luke]

Aha. Is the difference in "potence" between raised Ob:s and increased # of dice accounted for in the system (via examples or whatever)? As eruditus said, raising the Ob one step is far more penalizing than adding one die is rewarding. And, again, why the +1Ob on Su wounds when -1D is less nasty (warrants a Steel test I know but still...)?

Split from the old post...

anyway, Superficial wounds have remained at +1 Ob. Why? Because of the way negative dice work in the system. Subtracting a die, though it may not seem so, is actually more significant than adding an obstacle penalty.

Doesn't matter what the obstacle is, even with one die there is a chance that you can meet it.

But once you hit zero dice, you are no longer allowed a chance to test. That's a heavy limitation. So by inserting a grade of wound that affects the obstacle, but doesn't threaten incapacitation, I've allowed for a slightly finer gradation in penalty.

-L

[Yagathai]

*mutinies*

[eruditus]

Why would a reduced Ob be a free success?

Because you remove the chance factor. Each die has it's own 50/50 chance of succeeding and failing. Each die MAY bring you success, meaning each die MAY meet an obstacle. By reducing an obstacle your saying that obstacle is being automatically superceded.

I suppose this is sorta abstract reasoning and what it really comes down to is the probabilities:

(discounting open-ended dice)
4 dice at ob 3: 31.2% of success
5 dice at ob 3: 50% of success - adding a die makes it 18.8% more likely to succeed
4 dice at ob 2: 68.7% - dropping the ob makes it 37.5% more likely to succeed.

(Thanks to Tony for the fantastic die probabilities (http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/bw_probabilities.pdf))

[Angaros]

I understand how you've reasoned Luke. Not sure that I would have valued incapacitation (or the threat of ...) the same way, but that really doesn't matter since you write the rules. If I (or rather me and my group) wants to play differently we only have to make a houserule. :) But it's nice to discuss stuff here and see how you've reasoned. Makes me understand the rules better.

@Eru: I guess I objected to your choice of words mostly. Those probability spreadsheets are really nice to have. I use them all the time.

[eruditus]

I'm with ya on why we discuss. Everyone has their own way of doing things. And these discussion usually bear out a big picture. As such, i certainly like putting things in a perpective that someone may not have thgouht of.


Not sure that I would have valued incapacitation (or the threat of ...) the same way


In a game where things can swing so dramatically I think any modifier that allows me to to continue fighting and doesn't bring me closer to "not fighting" is a good thing. Especially since you can shrug off the superficials.


@Eru: I guess I objected to your choice of words mostly. Those probability spreadsheets are really nice to have. I use them all the time.

I assume you mean calling the obstacle an automatic success?

I have a tendancy to futz with systems all the time but I find i do so less and less with BW (especially since the revisions). My suggestion is try it all "out of the box." I think you'll find it works well. If after a few games under your belt it still leaves a bad taste in your mouth then play with things all you like. :)

[Fourth Horseman]

[quote="abzu"]Eru's right. And the whole system has been retooled to reflect this. There is no way to reduce obstacles now. If you want to reduce the difficulty of a task, you add dice via various means. [cues mutiny]

And concomitantly there will be no increase in obstacles right? Every task will have a set ob with greater difficulty reflected in subtracting dice rolled by various means? . . . right?

[luke]

And concomitantly there will be no increase in obstacles right? Every task will have a set ob with greater difficulty reflected in subtracting dice rolled by various means? . . . right?

No.



There are four aspects to the basic task resulotion system:

Obstacles are what they are. The set the inherent difficulty of a task.

Advantage increases the number of dice rolled: aggressive stance, aiming, artha, working carefully, etc

Disadvantage increases obstacles: Light, weather, crappy ground conditions, moving quickly, etc.

Debilitation reduces the number of dice rolled: Light through Traumatic wounds, and Taxing effect spells.


Everything goes up except wounds, which bring you down.

Amount of dice rolled goes up to decrease difficulty.
Obstacle goes up to increase difficulty.

Wounds aren't really a part of the task resolution system. They are a separate filter laid atop it.

-L

[eruditus]

Eru's right. And the whole system has been retooled to reflect this. There is no way to reduce obstacles now. If you want to reduce the difficulty of a task, you add dice via various means. [cues mutiny]

And concomitantly there will be no increase in obstacles right? Every task will have a set ob with greater difficulty reflected in subtracting dice rolled by various means? . . . right?

White Wolf went this route in the new World of Darkness and it has significantly improved the scope and flow of the game! Difficulties remove dice and bonuses add dice. There is also no floating "obstacle" andy longer because of this. one success is all you need to accomplish your goals... now extra successes are a degree of success.

However with BW lowering dice does an odd thing to advancement. I think that and incapacitation are the only places that make lowering dice problematic.

(Note that you lower dice in locking as well... not just direct damage).

[luke]

(Note that you lower dice in locking as well... not just direct damage).

Sorry, I consider locks, taxing dice and wounds to be one and the same. The PTGS is simply a filter to determine the number of dice removed. Locks and Tax don't use a filter because they are temporary and "non-fatal."

Same mechanic, though.

-L

PS I really don't like "one success" mechanics. Might as well use percentile dice at that point.

[Durgil]

...Those probability spreadsheets are really nice to have. I use them all the time.
Thanks! :wink:

[Angaros]

Actually I use my own, but I did base them off those you made for TRoS... so the cred goes to you in the end anyway. :D

[eruditus]

PS I really don't like "one success" mechanics. Might as well use percentile dice at that point.

Percentile? How do you figure?

[luke]

PS I really don't like "one success" mechanics. Might as well use percentile dice at that point.

Percentile? How do you figure?

Reduce a die pool to one die, you've got a flat distribution roll -- same as a percentile die or a d20. The smaller the die pool, the more sharp the spikes of success and failure -- it's either pass or fail, up or down, on or off.

Which is another reason that reducing pools in BW is so significant. It really throws off your game!

-L

[eruditus]

I can see that.

WW also raised the difficulty number to 8 (from 6 and 7 in previsou versions of storyteller). Thus how many dice you roll really does matter.

I don't think this would work with BW for the reasons I mentioned earlier but I think it makes for a very clean die pool mechanic with more of a curve than one die or percentiles.