Shades by Example

[TickTockMan]

I have looked through the forums and I have not seen anything to the affect of giving very common examples or well-known examples to compare what each shade might represent.

I have seen discussions of Loki and Thor, and Gandalf, etc. and I wonder if there would be any interest in compiling a list, or at least a disucssion, of who might fit where on the shade scale.

I am not an obsessive list maker, nor am I compulsive about systematizing everything, but shade seems to be in contention in the forums, and it might help me (and other relative newbies) to understand what level of capability each shade represents.

Is there interest here? Am I off base? Has it been done to death and I am not aware of it?

Let me know what you think!

[luke]

Ticktock,

I mean this in the nicest way possible: Maybe you should wait until you have the game? It's all made pretty clear in the books.

Soon, man! Soon.
-Luke

PS (Don't you have the Monster Burner? That is an even better discussion of shade than the BW/CB.)

[TickTockMan]

I hear what you are saying, I really do.

I do have the Monster burner, Abzu, and that is what got me thinking of this along with the discussions on the boards here. I have read the original BW, I just do not own a copy yet, so I am familiar with the ideas of shade.

It just seems the shade discussions I have read go back and forth between what each shade represents, and opinionsy seem to differ. I was hoping to hear what differing opinions are out there to help refine my own conception. But if it is pretty clear to everyone, and there is really a common view on it, then I will leave it be.

I guess I did not know if it was a "black and white" issue. :D

Couldn't help it.

[luke]

It just seems the shade discussions I have read go back and forth between what each shade represents, and opinionsy seem to differ. I was hoping to hear what differing opinions are out there to help refine my own conception. But if it is pretty clear to everyone, and there is really a common view on it, then I will leave it be.

I'm sorry. I thought you hadn't read the material. You have, so by all means, discuss!

Perhaps you might refine or focus your question a bit more?

Are you looking for mythological examples? I assume you've look through the Bestiary in the Monbu? The Demon and Dragon, for example, are freaking nasty powerful. Ask Kaare/Negligent, he turned one loose on his players.

-L

[TickTockMan]

No problem! I will think about my question a bit more before throwing it out there. My initial thoughts centered around non-mythological figures, because it seems we often vague descriptions of what they accomplished, or at least infrequent ones. Certain people, like Hercules, are the exception, so I guessmy inclination was to look at modern literature or comics for examples.

I thought the exampe in the MonBu of the vampires from Anne Rice's novels being gray was very interesting, since they are generally superior to humanity in every way. Where are Superman and Hellboy on this scale? Or the samurai from Lone Wolf and Cub? Or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser? Or Cthulhu?

This is what is bouncing around in my head right now. I will think some more and see if I can carve a better question out of my curiousity.

[Kaare Berg]

Hi TicKToc,

Look her, for the post about Dragons, (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=648&highlight=dragons) note that this was the dragon in the Monbu, and here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=838&highlight=) for the other monstrosity, Gûldagnir.

Both were extreme examples of shades. Both were practically undefeatable and had to be killed by tricking them.

As for grey shade skills, Liam the ranger had G8 Bow skill, and routinely shot eyeslits in helmets at 200 paces. this was a man that nearly always dropped his target by bypassing armour and inflicting mark or superb hits (an average if 4 ekstra successes(+2 to DoF) on his shot).

peace

[eruditus]

Hi TicKToc,

Look her, for the post about Dragons, (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=648&highlight=dragons) note that this was the dragon in the Monbu, and here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=838&highlight=) for the other monstrosity, Gûldagnir.

Both were extreme examples of shades. Both were practically undefeatable and had to be killed by tricking them.

As for grey shade skills, Liam the ranger had G8 Bow skill, and routinely shot eyeslits in helmets at 200 paces. this was a man that nearly always dropped his target by bypassing armour and inflicting mark or superb hits (an average if 4 ekstra successes(+2 to DoF) on his shot).

peace

Sheesh. Look out Smaug. Was this a PC?

[Kublai]

I think it was made pretty clear BW's stance towards shades in my "Shades Schmades" thread. The shade only presents the mechanical difference between mundanity and the supernatural. What makes Superman a super man are his Traits. Any Joe can have a grey skill, but it won't make more than a smidge of difference until he gets Lightning Reflexes, Fearless, Fleet of Foot, and Aura of Fear!

Using Superman as our example, he'd probably have all grey stats and traits such as Laserbeam Eyes, Flight, Invulnerable, Krypto-bane, X-ray Eyes, and so forth.

[Yagathai]

Nuh uh. Batman lives in the Grey. Supes, he lives in the White -- at least his physical stats.

[Kaare Berg]

Sheesh. Look out Smaug. Was this a PC?

Yepp. Liam the Ranger. Retired because the player grew tired of the rangers depressing outlook.
Now a wandering NPC in the service of the shade Maeind.

But I am drifting.

Hellboy would be Grey Scale, with some heavy traits.

However, where grey scale really makes a difference is in the low exponent stats/skills.

Do not worry about it TickTock.

I recommend to keep your first few games mundane (black scale).

[Thor]

Nuh uh. Batman lives in the Grey. Supes, he lives in the White -- at least his physical stats.

I think Batman is almost entirely Black shade. Possibly he has Gray Perception. He's got a host of Traits though, like Eidetic Memory, Hand/Eye Coordination, Penetrating Gaze, Ear for Voices, Manhunter, Tough as Nails, Tenacious, etc.

Superman is Gray shade in his Physical stats, also with a host of traits, though very potent ones. Hands of Stone is probably the most mundane of them.

[eruditus]

Nuh uh. Batman lives in the Grey. Supes, he lives in the White -- at least his physical stats.

I think Batman is almost entirely Black shade. Possibly he has Gray Perception. He's got a host of Traits though, like Eidetic Memory, Hand/Eye Coordination, Penetrating Gaze, Ear for Voices, Manhunter, Tough as Nails, Tenacious, etc.

Superman is Gray shade in his Physical stats, also with a host of traits, though very potent ones. Hands of Stone is probably the most mundane of them.

Nah, I agree with yagathai. DC heroes in general are usually white shade - especially superman. His clones are all gray. I would agree that Batman is all mundane. he just has a lot of dice, a lot of FoRKs and he just knows what to do with it all. Like Thor said, maybe Grey Perception and Gray Steel.

[TickTockMan]

Thanks for the ideas! I have to say I come down almost entirely with Thor on this in y estimation of Batman, et al. I do see Superman as having white shade strength, but gray everything else. The Hulk is probably similar that way. Hellboy is likely predominantly gray, being supernatural and nearly indestructible.

It is the classic discussion from Stand By Me, who would win in a fight, Superman or Mighty Mouse? It is tough to compare power levels between fictional characters like Superman and Gandalf, but I think it is important to know what is what.

I once read an article, I forget the author, who talked about how scary it would be to actually be within arms reach of Superman. He is on another level, and could snuff you out in a heartbeat. It would feel like sitting next to an undetonated nuke. I want my players to feel that when and if a gray shade comes their way, and if they get any gray attributes, I want them to realize what that means to the world around them.

True, it is a discussion that is little fanboy in nature, but I think it is fascinating anyway!

[jc_madden]

Have you ever met anyone who was in the Special Forces or any other highly trained individual? Most of these men in BW terms are probably B6s, MAYBE a grey steel and perhaps grey martial arts. I had a highschool buddy that went into the army, when he joined he was already the youngest 3rd degree blackbelt in Shodukhan Karate (sp?) at 18. When he got out of Desert Storm he had: Handled a M-60 with the infantry, became a Ranger, cross trained into the Navy Seals...... This man was scary to be in the same room with. Even though he was my very good friend and still is this guy could kill a normal person without breaking a sweat and had done and seen things that mortal men could only dream of. This didn't make him supernatural or god-like, only uncommonly skilled. My point is you don't have to be grey or white to be feared and powerful. I think that the basic way of understanding shade is Grey is the uper reaches of normal human potential something like one in a million folks even have ONE grey skill, another 1 in those million might have a grey stat. Yes, white is superman and other godlike beings.

[TickTockMan]

I agree with your point here. I think the point the author was making, is that if you take a Navy SEAL, and imagine how scary that individual can be, imagine how much more so it would be if the SEAL could fly, lift 1000 tons, etc.

I think that a character (like the ranger from the previous post) with even one gray scale characteristic can be scary as hell. It actually goes to the point that the BW system is a good one, and built to handle a very nice range of power levels. I guess it depends on the players, but it certainly can handle the power levels I find in my games. A single gray shade characteristic will put you well into the top percentile of human achievement, and you are correct when you illustrate how people (like my players :? ) can underestimate what that shade shift means.

But they are gonna learn.... :twisted:

Any other ideas on the shades of favorite characters?

[RickoniX]

Nuh uh. Batman lives in the Grey. Supes, he lives in the White -- at least his physical stats.

I think Batman is almost entirely Black shade. Possibly he has Gray Perception. He's got a host of Traits though, like Eidetic Memory, Hand/Eye Coordination, Penetrating Gaze, Ear for Voices, Manhunter, Tough as Nails, Tenacious, etc.

Superman is Gray shade in his Physical stats, also with a host of traits, though very potent ones. Hands of Stone is probably the most mundane of them.

Nah, I agree with yagathai. DC heroes in general are usually white shade - especially superman. His clones are all gray. I would agree that Batman is all mundane. he just has a lot of dice, a lot of FoRKs and he just knows what to do with it all. Like Thor said, maybe Grey Perception and Gray Steel.I think we're all losing sight of what's really important here, Batman SO has grey will

[Yagathai]

According to official DC continuity, Superman is the strongest being on DC Earth. He's stronger than Wonder Woman, and she has the strength of a god (having once been a god, in current continuity). He's also the second-fastest being on the planet, and can almost keep up with The Flash in a foot race -- and Flash is faster than time. Superman can also withstand the same type of damage that he deals.

All of this would argue for white Physical stats, as well as a host of ginormously powerful traits.

[Angaros]

And his Power exponent ought to be like... 30? Or something similar. Considering Batman could be a 6 or 7, the Hulk maybe a 9 or 10?

[Yagathai]

I think that a W9 with the trait "Last Son of Krypton" and "Powered by a Yellow Sun" would work fine. No need to get crazy.

Re: Hulk v. Superman: The Hulk has never, ever actually been taken down in a knock-down, drag-out 'fair' fight. The harder you hit him, the angrier he gets and the stronger he gets.

But Supers would totally win in a fight. Hulk can't fly, and he can't hold his breath forever.

[Angaros]

Regarding the exponent: I thought that a 9 wouldn't be enough to hurl a train or do other stuff Superman has done in the comics. White shade or not.

[Yagathai]

Right, which is why his traits would grant him some insanely high multipliers.

[Angaros]

Ah. Now I see how you're thinking. :)

Btw, isn't there some sort of badguy in the DC Heroes RPG that's got a strength of 40? I remember the average human having 2, Superman 25 and the values being exponential -- 4 is twice as much as 3 which is twice as much as 2 and so on.

[TickTockMan]

Everything I have ever read seems to say that Hulk is bar-none the strongest in terms of actual power output. Superman is the most capable, but I think Hulk is the strongest. That is what the comics have me believe, anyway.

[Thor]

Ok guys, that's enough. Get back on topic or take it to Chatterer.

[Kublai]

Dude, they are on topic!

[Thor]

Dude, they are on topic!

Not when they're talking about the DC Superheroes RPG and whether the Hulk or Superman is strongest.

I'm not trying to be a hardass guys. It's perfectly cool to talk about it in terms of Burning Wheel shades and exponents here. But if the post is entirely about another RPG or about comics and not about Burning Wheel, it should be in Chatterer. And I believe Don has already started a thread to that effect there.

[TickTockMan]

I am all for more examples of shades, the more the better as far as I am concerned. The selfish purpose behind this inquiry, besides my own curiousity and understanding, is to help me scale a world of my own design. That is why in my initial topic I I listed beings from Fafhrd and the Mouse to Cthulhu.

I think comics are good frame of reference since they operate in a similar way to modern mythology. Plus, they are a great way to look at what a hero is capable of, and seeing what it means to be a hero (or hero level character). Player characters will stand out, and be in some way exceptional, but how exceptional is something i am still rolling around in my head. I think a point of reference is helpful, whether it is literary or from your own experiences playing BW, it makes no difference to me. The more signposts we have, even if they are still being debated, the clearer my vision and the stronger my building blocks will be.

[Manicrack]

... ok, i want to find a way to get superman owned.

The x-men come along and Xavier starts mind attacking him (Will G9 -10 is my guess for him) while the others distract him. No idea why they would do that, but let's go along for now.
Superman might be physically superior but mentally, i don't know.
Never been muhc into DC comics so if I underestiamte Superman's mental capabilities here, please tell me so.

-Crack

[eruditus]

... And I believe Don has already started a thread to that effect there.

Don? Who is this Don person you all keep referring to? ;)

[jc_madden]

Still though TickTock I think even your exceptional hero's are going to just have B6's and higher rather than be all grey. Sure they might have one stat or skill in the grey but not all. This just represents specific expertise.

[eruditus]

So then do "real" gods have all white stats and/or skills?

has anyone besides my players actually met a white being?

[Kublai]

Nope! But I think I will soon enough. Thar be dragons about!

As for what gods are in BW, I think they would be more like Apollo or Loki or Athena rather than the all-knowing, all-powerful being in the Hebrew Bible.

[TickTockMan]

It does seem that the feel of the ogds in BW would be anthropomorphic, but like anything else in the game, I think they can be whatever the GM says they are.

For me, in the world I am building, there are factions that revere a deity they hold to me the only god, and others who are pantheists, and even a nihilists. It is a mixed bag, but the world is a big place.

I expect the gods themselves will be white shaded (whichever gods there actually are) but their manifestations or avatars or angels or whatever, will probably be gray shaded.

I am still working it out though.

[Kublai]

Well, I didn't really mean BW gods are supposed to be anthropomorphic like the examples I gave, but only meant them as a reference to a power scale.

If you look in the Summoning Chapter or Monster Burner, you will see that Angels and Demons are indeed gray, which fits your scale.

[Redoid]

As for what gods are in BW, I think they would be more like Apollo or Loki or Athena rather than the all-knowing, all-powerful being in the Hebrew Bible.

I would say that, if only for playability... What's the point of statting out an all-powerful, all-knowing being, as the characters won't compete with it anyway? Greek gods were occasionally defeated by mortals and heroes if they wanted to play fair, a feat you don't see happening in the Bible...

I suppose that's the point of white shade stats : having a white root means that even at low skills, or even at double obstacle, it's possible for a superhuman being to be good at thing and master effortlessly any chosen skill... It's not superhuman mastery of their chosen domain. If Apollo picks up a new music instrument, he'll be instinctively very good at it, but may not equal a mortal master devoting his life to it. Of course, if he wants not to play fair, the mortal will lose (remember Marsyas), but it's better left as a trait "god, get an Ob 10 miracle at will" rather than stats and skills.

[TickTockMan]

I see what you mean. I am just agreeing that your assessment of shade levels for gods is right in line with my thinking of what the gods would likely be. The fantasy feel of BW usually goes hand in hand with anthropomorphic gods, with rare exceptions like Iron Kingdoms.

It certainly fits with what I will be doing!

I am hitting up the MonBu as soon as I am done here.

Thanks!

[luke]

I would say that, if only for playability... What's the point of statting out an all-powerful, all-knowing being, as the characters won't compete with it anyway?

DING!

Give the man a prize.

[TickTockMan]

"Redoid wrote:
I would say that, if only for playability... What's the point of statting out an all-powerful, all-knowing being, as the characters won't compete with it anyway?"


Yeah, who would want to stat the GM anyway? :twisted:

[luke]

Yeah, who would want to stat the GM anyway? :twisted:

You're going to be very surprised by Burning Wheel, I think. GM's just a player with some different tasks to handle. He sure as hell ain't all powerful.

And how would you be "all powerful" when your players would just walk out on you for screwing them in the game?
:shock:
That's what the Peer Review system is for. You're all players. You all decide what's appropriate for your game.

-L

[TickTockMan]

Gotcha. I wouldn't be surprised at all. I wouldn't expect you would create a game that works that way, and I was just kidding anyway. I am not a fan of railroading or antagonizing my players, and everyone seems to have a good time when I GM the game. I do not powertrip in any of the games I run now, and I do not plan to start now.

The reason I ask these questions is because I put a lot of effort in running a good game. I am excited by what Burning Wheel will allow my players to do, not by what it will allow me to do to them.

[luke]

perrrfect.