Animate Ship

[eruditus]

One of the characters (goldenvoidknight) is making a sorcerous ship captain. He has learned a spell that allows him to command the ship and control the vessel without a crew. Here is what we came up with.

Element - Arcana +4 ob +14 syl - magically control the vessel
Element - Earth +1 ob +6 syl - ship moves its own metal, wood and cloth bits
Impetus - Control +5 ob +32 syl - confers motion on the ship's paraphenalia
Impetus - Enhance +4 ob +24 syl - Gives the ship supernatural ability (+2 Open-ended dice)
Impetus - Influence +3 ob +8 syl - gives the ship skills and limited awareness; not quite sentient, nor can it communicate
Origin - Presence +1 ob +4 syl - must cast spell from the helm
Duration - Months +8 ob +96 syl - Lunar schedule due to his magical tradition
Area of Effect - Double Natural Effect +6 ob +18 syl

First Distillation
Arcana + Presence +3 ob +9 syl

Second Distillation
Control + Double Natural Effect +6 ob +25 syl

Final Distillation
Arcana-Presence + Control-DNE + Earth-Enhance-Influence-Months
13 ob 84 syl
Capped -1 ob

Final Spell
Animate Ship Ob 12 84 syl
Effect: This spell brings a ship to life allowing it to operate as if it had a full compliment of crew and command on board. The ship is aware of its immediate surroundings and conditions affecting it directly. This area of influence extends a number of paces beyond the hull and masts of the vessel equal to twice the caster's will. The ship gains three skills - Helmsman, Knots and Rigging - all at the caster's Will + 2. All other skills still operate at Will + 2 but gain a double obstacle penalty. The GM should control what the ship concerns itself and how it operates.
Range: Presence
Area: See above
Impetus: Control/Enhance/Influence
Element: Arcana/Earth
Duration: Last night of the New Moon

[luke]

I think you're being too hard on him with some of the elements.
There's no obvious "magic stuff" involved, so you probably don't need arcana. You've got your bases covered with Earth Control/Enhance/Influence.

Also, I think you could make a good case for a Single Target AoE -- one ship.

that might drop the obstacle a bit.
-L

[eruditus]

I think you're being too hard on him with some of the elements.
There's no obvious "magic stuff" involved, so you probably don't need arcana. You've got your bases covered with Earth Control/Enhance/Influence.

Also, I think you could make a good case for a Single Target AoE -- one ship.

that might drop the obstacle a bit.
-L

My thought was that if he controlled the ship directly and constantly throughout the month then control earth would be fine... the arcana allows it to act semi-independantly.

The ship as a Single Target seems kinda big as compared to, say, a mouse.

[luke]

The ship as a Single Target seems kinda big as compared to, say, a mouse.

tis the intent of the facet. Don't you listen to anything Yoda says?

and it's a lot harder to control a ship (as you've pointed out) than it isn't a mouse. but that doesn't mean a ship is more of a single target than a mouse.

also, you might want to consider that an Ob 12 spell is like drinking a gallon of poison once a month and hoping you puke fast enough to get it out before you die.

-L

[goldenvoidknight]

Here is a write up of the spell with what I thought Abzu was commenting about. Please give any feedback on this work up. Currently Eruditus feels that the original version is a really powerful spell so I would doubt we would use this version unless in play it is shown that I can almost never accually cast the other version. Though by looking over the other version with everything again I can say was was able to get it down to
12 Ob, 70 Syl.

Control: ob 5 syl 32
Presence: ob 1 syl 4
Months: ob 8 syl 96
Single Target: ob 1 syl 4
Earth: ob 1 syl 6
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

Control/Presence: ob 3 syl 18
Months: ob 8 syl 96
Single Target: ob 1 syl 4
Earth: ob 1 syl 6
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

Control/Presence: ob 3 syl 18
Months/Single Target: ob 5 syl 50
Earth: ob 1 syl 6
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

All: ob 8 syl 53

Spell Caped Lowering ob by 1

Final: ob 7 syl 53

Animate Ship Ob 7 53 Syllables

Effect: This spell brings a ship to life allowing it to operate as if it had a full compliment of crew and command on board. The ship is aware of its immediate surroundings and conditions affecting it directly. This area of influence extends a number of paces beyond the hull and masts of the vessel equal to twice the caster's will. The ship gains three skills - Helmsman, Knots and Rigging - all at the caster's Will + 2. All other skills still operate at Will + 2 but gain a double obstacle penalty. The GM should control what the ship concerns itself and how it operates.

Range: Presence
Area: Double Natural Effect (See above)
Impetus: Control/Enhance/Influence
Element: Earth
Duration: Months (Last Night of the New Moon)

[goldenvoidknight]

Seeing as in Eru's perfered version we have alot of impiti and elements I was thinking it would qualify for Minoris Sigil.

Hence it would be:

Arcana: ob 4 syl 14
Control: ob 5 syl 32
Presence: ob 1 syl 4
Months: ob 8 syl 96
Double Natural Effect: ob 6 syl 18
Earth: ob 1 syl 6
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

Arcana: ob 4 syl 14
Control: ob 5 syl 32
Months/Presence: ob 5 syl 50
Double Natural Effect: ob 6 syl 18
Earth: ob 1 syl 6
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

Arcana: ob 4 syl 14
Control: ob 5 syl 32
Months/Presence: ob 5 syl 50
Earth/Double Natural Effect: ob 4 syl 12
Enhance: ob 4 syl 24
Influence: ob 3 syl 8

All: ob 13 syl 70

Spell Caped lowering ob by 1
Minoris Sigil lowering ob by 1

Final: ob 11 syl 70

Animate Ship Ob 11 70 Syllables

Effect: This spell brings a ship to life allowing it to operate as if it had a full compliment of crew and command on board. The ship is aware of its immediate surroundings and conditions affecting it directly. This area of influence extends a number of paces beyond the hull and masts of the vessel equal to twice the caster's will. The ship gains three skills - Helmsman, Knots and Rigging - all at the caster's Will + 2. All other skills still operate at Will + 2 but gain a double obstacle penalty. The GM should control what the ship concerns itself and how it operates.

Range: Presence
Area: Double Natural Effect (See above)
Impetus: Control/Enhance/Influence
Element: Arcana/Earth
Duration: Months (Last Night of the New Moon)

[jc_madden]

judge me by my size do you, hmm?

This is a very cool little spell by the way, just one question? Why on earth would you not have a crew? What happens if say, pirates attack? Sea monsters?

[Angaros]

How is the rules reflecting the fact that some targets are more complex to control than others? I'd probably rule that each shipmate he'd want the spell to make up for would be count as a target or raise the Ob or something. Make the spell work as a skeleton crew of four or five sailors. Then there's the question of how intelligent the spell would be. Even if the captain's a damn good sailor, he would be hard pressed to oversee all functions at the same time himself. The spell would have to "think" on it's own a bit. The Influence impetus might work for that one.

I'd do it as a:
Earth 1 6
Control +5 +32
Influence +3 +8
Personal +0 +2
ET: Months +8 +96
AoE: 4x Single Target +4 +16
MA: 10s of Paces +4 +12

1st Destillation:
Control-Months +6.5 +64
--
Earth 1 6
Influence +3 +8
Personal +0 +2
AoE: 4x Single Target +4 +16
MA: 10s of Paces +4 +12

2nd Destillation:
Targets-10s of Paces +4 +14
--
Control-Months +6.5 +64
Earth 1 6
Influence +3 +8
Personal +0 +2

Final Destillation:
Living Galley Ob:7 Sy:44

Adding Cap and Extension you get
Living Galley Ob:5 Sy:220
(110 actions or roughly 1.5 minutes -- who said spellcasting was slow??)

[eruditus]

How is the rules reflecting the fact that some targets are more complex to control than others? I'd probably rule that each shipmate he'd want the spell to make up for would be count as a target or raise the Ob or something. Make the spell work as a skeleton crew of four or five sailors. Then there's the question of how intelligent the spell would be. Even if the captain's a damn good sailor, he would be hard pressed to oversee all functions at the same time himself. The spell would have to "think" on it's own a bit. The Influence impetus might work for that one.


This is why we put in Enhance and Influence as well as Arcana, Control and Earth. It gives the ship some intelligence and a extraordinary shipping skill as well as the ability to take commands and read maps and the like.

I particulary dig the idea that he can still fight with the ship (at double ob since the ship does not have gunnery) but he had to direct the crew.

Thanks for the input.

[eruditus]

As far as the ship being a single target, I believe that its too complex. Very few parts of the ship just move. This big ass spell allows it to be one spell instead of two dozen speerate spells called "animate rigging, animate sails, animate helm, animate cannon," etc. A ship is not one object.

[eruditus]

also, you might want to consider that an Ob 12 spell is like drinking a gallon of poison once a month and hoping you puke fast enough to get it out before you die.

-L

Yeah, but that's what casting patiently and Carefully is for, right?

[Kublai]

Even with P+C, you're still gonna die casting that spell! :shock:

I see a lot of room for reducing Obstacles. Make it Caster Origin, which requires the captain to touch the helm to cast it instead of just being near it. After all, it's not a sustained spell and therefore wouldn't need to be in constant touch once it's up.

Also, would it be less of an obstacle to use weeks or days instead of months? 4 weeks. 31 days. 1 month. Is it all the same?

It's a very cool idea, but I would be much more lenient with the facets myself since I would want him to cast it without dying. Earth, Control, Caster Origin, Month Duration, Single Target.

Or, if you were intent on the facets you have, why not pump in minoris and all those other sigils until you have a usable spell that takes a VERY long time to cast? After all, since you need to cast it only once per month, there's certainly time to draw out the casting.

[Thor Olavsrud]

It also wouldn't hurt to throw a few Extension Sigils onto it. I mean, if you're casting the spell in a hurry, you're dead anyway, so why not increase the syllables a few times to lower the Ob?

I do agree that it should be Single Target though. The only reason to make it a Measured Area is to do it to multiple ships.

[eruditus]

Even with P+C, you're still gonna die casting that spell! :shock:

:twisted:
I see a lot of room for reducing Obstacles. Make it Caster Origin, which requires the captain to touch the helm to cast it instead of just being near it. After all, it's not a sustained spell and therefore wouldn't need to be in constant touch once it's up.

Also, would it be less of an obstacle to use weeks or days instead of months? 4 weeks. 31 days. 1 month. Is it all the same?

I agree that lost effectiveness is the way to go on the spell to make it less deadly.

It's a very cool idea, but I would be much more lenient with the facets myself since I would want him to cast it without dying.
Oh, I love the spell. I just think there should be some reason to buy a full crew and not just use this spell. Hell, you may as well buy a sorcerous retainer since any ol' mage could cast such a spell. you'd never need crews ever again. No more ransoms for officers. No more mutinies. No more splitting booty.

Earth, Control, Caster Origin, Month Duration, Single Target.
So you guys would have the same obstacle for this spell as enchanting a single broom to sweep a room on command?

Or, if you were intent on the facets you have, why not pump in minoris and all those other sigils until you have a usable spell that takes a VERY long time to cast? After all, since you need to cast it only once per month, there's certainly time to draw out the casting.
Yeah, neither of us are familiar enough with those things to consider them. I went strictly by the Abstraction rules as written in the magic burner section. I think making things longer and adding on all sorts of limitation would definatly be the way to go.

[Kublai]

Earth, Control, Caster Origin, Month Duration, Single Target.
So you guys would have the same obstacle for this spell as enchanting a single broom to sweep a room on command?

Sounds crazy, but yes! It's really the intent that differentiates the outcome, not the facets. However, perhaps a ship would deserve a majoris sigil and a broom a minoris one.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Sounds crazy, but yes! It's really the intent that differentiates the outcome, not the facets. However, perhaps a ship would deserve a majoris sigil and a broom a minoris one.

I would agree to something like that. It's also important to remember that buying a warship is an Ob 10 Resources test! Getting such ships is no easy matter.

And every single last spell, yes even Spirit Servant, has the potential to destroy the world. Spells are not cast lightly.

[eruditus]

Earth, Control, Caster Origin, Month Duration, Single Target.
So you guys would have the same obstacle for this spell as enchanting a single broom to sweep a room on command?

Sounds crazy, but yes! It's really the intent that differentiates the outcome, not the facets. However, perhaps a ship would deserve a majoris sigil and a broom a minoris one.

So no sorcerer in his right mind (which may be the issue right there) would ever cast the "broom sweeps the floor when I tell it to," instead every mage will cast the "earth moves its own dirt around so floors are never dirty" since the earth is a single target? So really a small handful of mages could cast world maintaining spells with low obs and there would never be any need for any real work in any BW world with this magic system, ever again. That very same spell could coax all the silver in the world safely to the surface in neat little bars with no change in ob due to intent?

Why would folk cast smaller scale spells especially since they are just as dangerous as the bigger scope ones?

[Angaros]

I'd guess they'd do it because it fit's their intent at the moment or something similar. But it still bothers me (a lot) that it would be roughly the same Ob to destroy a pebble as destroying a wall, or a castle, or a mountain, or a planet. I guess it seems awkward since mass and energy are proportional. It might be unappropriate to assume magical energy works the same way (or even remotely so) but I can't help it. I'll try to work some limitations into the Shek-Pvar Burner though.

[luke]

Funny. I always thought a mouse was a lot more complex than a ship. Being ALIVE and all.

-L

[eruditus]

Funny. I always thought a mouse was a lot more complex than a ship. Being ALIVE and all.

-L

Your about 12 posts late. To bring you up to speed, newest comparison was a broom - no doubt a little less complex than a ship. Although I suppose I could have used toothpick as an example. :wink:

So we all agree, then, that a toothpick, a broom, a galleon, a castle, and a planet are all under the pervue of "Earth/Control/Single Target" according to the way you (that's the plural - not just abzu) run magic?

[Kublai]

I think Don's question predicts the expanded roll of minoris and majoris in the Magic Burner!

[eruditus]

I think Don's question predicts the expanded roll of minoris and majoris in the Magic Burner!
True, that was mentioned.

My concern is that its not well defined. Do we think that maybe we could work out examples for each facet?

What would the majoris/minoris apply to? The spell at large or the individual facets?

[Kublai]

They are added on after the spell has been distilled. The more you add, the more they have an effect. So going from a broom to a spoon might only be one minoris, but going from a broom to a planet would be about a billion majoris!

Sigils are still only little saplings. We need to fertilize them and nurture them to reach their full potential.