Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Asking for Traits

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rosario, Argentina
    Posts
    353
    Rep Power
    1463

    Default Asking for Traits

    Is it cool to ask traits in before play?

    What I mean is: you just finished burning your character, and during it's creation you saw a lot of cool traits that you couldn't buy because of low trait points.

    The game starts and you don't know if you are going to get those traits during the sessions. So how about asking them to the group? As I see it the trait vote has a "you reap what you sow" policy when handling traits, so, what if you say "OK, I want this trait... what can I do to earn it?". It's OKay to negotiate trait acquisition so you can get voted when the time comes?

    I find it logical, but also kind of problematic, because in the passing of sessions the character (or characters) will be accumulating a lot of traits (and I'm sure that a lot of players will be targeting those expensive Dt and C-O's). Also, as I have interpret it, the traits in trait vote are more like granted, not... acquired. But the characters would be earning them, only in more clear terms, and the players would be motivated by shaping their characters the way they like it.

    It also would work the other way around. If I want to loose a trait, I could simply ask the rest of the group how to loose it.

    It is a valid way of gaming or it has a disruptive consequence that I might not be seeing? Would you accept this in your game? Have anybody had experiences like this?

    Stay cool

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    985
    Rep Power
    728

    Default

    Having a similar instinct should be a good compromise. After being used in play you can become eligible for the trait in the trait vote.
    - Guy

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    788
    Rep Power
    347

    Default

    Check p. 59: Trait Vote, as well as Evolving Beliefs and Instincts. I personally think it's fine to alert your group to what you're angling for, but I don't feel like they're under any obligation to award you that trait. During trait voting, they nominate you for the one trait (character, call-on, die) that they think best personifies you. If you want them to award you a specific trait, you had better make sure that it best describes your character come vote time! Remember you get to nominate yourself for a trait as well--and the artha spent on Beliefs and Instincts are used as a guideline to the power of the trait.

    So if you want that badass trait you couldn't afford, play toward it. Write Beliefs and Instincts that tie into it. Spend artha to accomplish them. When it comes time to vote, nominate yourself for it and defend it. It can also be useful if you don't rise quite to that point to go for a similar but lower-powered trait, especially a character trait. Show a progression.
    On the mountains of truth you can never climb in vain: either you will reach a point higher up today, or you will be training your powers so that you will be able to climb higher tomorrow. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    284
    Rep Power
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DagaZ View Post
    It is a valid way of gaming or it has a disruptive consequence that I might not be seeing? Would you accept this in your game? Have anybody had experiences like this?
    I don't see why not. "Right now, I have Coward. I want to end up with Courageous. What do I need to do?"

    The GM might not have an immediate answer, but can probably suggest some great Beliefs or Instincts to build up this issue for the character, and bring out situations to highlight it. Other players can help, too, by putting your character in situations to test that goal, as well.

    Also remember that Trait vote is at the end of an adventure, not each session, per se. So the trait vote often depends on your character's behavior over several sessions and what people remember.

    Chris

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,714
    Rep Power
    381

    Default

    Just saying it isn't enough. You need to either play it heavily or write BITs about it and spend artha on them. Therefore, asking for advice about those things is totally legit. I would frame the conversation as "Hey guys, help me write this belief" or "hey GM, challenge my courage" rather than "Help me become Courageous, bros."

    As far as down-votes, I wouldn't mention it. Don't even say "My guy has Lazy but I don't think he's lazy." Just play him as super-industrious, don't even plant the idea of laziness in anyone's head, and then when the vote comes up and folks are nominating traits to vote off, pipe up: "I don't think Lazy suits my dude. What do you guys think?"

    To some degree, I think it's useful to have an in-fiction way of thinking about the quest. I think we're all agreed that having a character who wants to gain the Gifted trait is a legit goal: Your character would say "I want to become a wizard." Having a character who wants the Mr. Lee trait is a little foggier, but it helps to frame that in terms your character might use (in this case, I bet one of the eponymous Bruce's to-do lists could supply an appropriate "become the greatest living martial artist" item.) There is a bit of a disconnect because "become the greatest living martial artist" could mean skill advancement or it could mean any number of different traits. In that case, I think it's perfectly appropriate to clue in your group: "Hey, I'm thinking about Trait X with that belief, what do you guys think?" If your group thinks you were mostly about looking good with no shirt, they'll vote you for Prettyboy instead of Mr. Lee. But letting them know that you're angling for Mr. Lee instead of, say, Quickened Pulse is helpful. The intent there isn't to push your group into giving you a badass trait you don't deserve. It's to make sure that if and when you earn a badass trait, it's the one you want.
    -Devin

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rosario, Argentina
    Posts
    353
    Rep Power
    1463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yeloson
    Also remember that Trait vote is at the end of an adventure, not each session, per se. So the trait vote often depends on your character's behavior over several sessions and what people remember.
    The Adventure Burner says that Trait vote should come up in about the 6th and 12th sessions, and after some important (not necessarily after finishing the adventure).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirram
    So if you want that badass trait you couldn't afford, play toward it. Write Beliefs and Instincts that tie into it. Spend artha to accomplish them. When it comes time to vote, nominate yourself for it and defend it. It can also be useful if you don't rise quite to that point to go for a similar but lower-powered trait, especially a character trait. Show a progression.
    Quote Originally Posted by zabieru
    Just saying it isn't enough. You need to either play it heavily or write BITs about it and spend artha on them. Therefore, asking for advice about those things is totally legit. I would frame the conversation as "Hey guys, help me write this belief" or "hey GM, challenge my courage" rather than "Help me become Courageous, bros."
    Quote Originally Posted by yeloson
    The GM might not have an immediate answer, but can probably suggest some great Beliefs or Instincts to build up this issue for the character, and bring out situations to highlight it. Other players can help, too, by putting your character in situations to test that goal, as well.
    Yes, that's what I'm talking about. In my head it goes something like this:

    Player 1: I couldn't afford the Gifted trait, can I become Gifted during play?
    GM: Ok, but it is a flavor-heavy trait, any ideas on how you could get it?
    Player 2: How about he gets it by an external, supernatural force, like a demon or something?

    So when the trait vote time comes, Player 1 might earn the Gifted trait after being dealing with demons and stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by zabieru
    The intent there isn't to push your group into giving you a badass trait you don't deserve. It's to make sure that if and when you earn a badass trait, it's the one you want.
    Totally.

    The idea struck me after reading the one on one thead that Luke posted some time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by luke
    After fully recovering and practicing his Takashido skill up to 6, Rich decided that Si Juk needed to move on. Rich wanted Si Juk to start his cult and the trance fighting. I asked him, "What do you want from the trance fighting?"
    "Complete immunity from Persuasion."

    Wow. That's a big power. We talked about it and decided that this would be trait that he would have to earn. Essentially, he'd have to get me to vote for him to get this trait. Fun stuff.

    So I asked him right away, "Well, let's start with a Meditation routine. What's your Meditation skill?"

    He didn't have one. Ah hah! "I ain't voting for you to get this trait until you have Meditation. That's your first step."
    So, this is where I'm going, a more "I want this, how can I get it" approach at traits.

    Stay cool

    PS: Please follow the related thread in our spanish-speaking forum here

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    788
    Rep Power
    347

    Default

    Yep, it sounds like you've already got all the advice you need. Now go earn those traits!
    On the mountains of truth you can never climb in vain: either you will reach a point higher up today, or you will be training your powers so that you will be able to climb higher tomorrow. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,389
    Rep Power
    1633

    Default

    Occurs to me that D&D is laden with this sort of information - supplements marketed to players are basically career planning guidebooks, catalogues of cool powers and a straight route to getting them. This takes the planning out of

    When I watch, say, Ninja Scroll, and you see that guy with the bees that come out of his back. How the heck do you get there? I suspect it takes some fanciful imagination. Very often with Burning Wheel I get bogged down in the grit and don't inject much 'fantasy' (as in, magical thinking).

    Be neat to see ladders of traits, D&D-like, for BW progression. But, unlike D&D, you link it to in-game accomplishments. That way you give players and GMs some a path to follow toward a particular fanciful outcome (e.g. someone's journey from peasant to mystical warrior), but without completely decoupling advancement and story.

    For example, traits that you can get once you have trained for a year with the best master in the five kingdoms. A trait you can only get for killing your master. A trait you can only get once you have a 3D reputation as a warrior. That sort of thing.
    Michael Prescott - I'm making free adventures!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rosario, Argentina
    Posts
    353
    Rep Power
    1463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuseboy View Post
    For example, traits that you can get once you have trained for a year with the best master in the five kingdoms. A trait you can only get for killing your master. A trait you can only get once you have a 3D reputation as a warrior. That sort of thing.
    That would be cool if those requirements are placed by the other players (like, "If you want to qet the Sith Lord trait, first you should kill your master and take his lightsaber"), not something written in the trait itself, that way the player knows that he can earn any trait he wish if he works hard for it, and also the whole group can put "requirements" according to the running game.

    Stay cool

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Olavsman Cave
    Posts
    5,697
    Rep Power
    1946

    Default

    I think it's totally fair for a player to tell the other people in the group that he's aiming to get a particular trait.

    We often see this in trait votes. A player will nominate himself for a particular trait. The group will often push back and suggest they need to see a little more before they award it. Often, a player who has demonstrated a particular quality earns a Character trait first, which is the group's way of saying that they enjoy where a player is going, but they want to see more before they award a powerful Die trait or Call-on trait.

    However, I would also share a word of caution. It's often great to have a story arc in mind for a character. At the same time, though, it's important to allow your character to change organically based on the events around the story. Sometimes Burning Wheel characters will take you in directions you never anticipated. Sometimes it's better to go along with that than to fight it because it doesn't follow the story arc you had in mind.

    I corner him and stab him in the face!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •